Re: Exhaust fumes.

And what does your dealer say about that potentially dangerous situation

 

Hi,

Whilst that is unpleasant and should be examined diesel 'fumes', unlike petrol 'fumes' won't kill you as CO not produced...hence no response from your CO monitor

 

Re: Exhaust fumes.

And what does your dealer say about that potentially dangerous situation

I've not mentioned it to my dealer yet. It could be my imagination.

 

Hi,

Whilst that is unpleasant and should be examined diesel 'fumes', unlike petrol 'fumes' won't kill you as CO not produced...hence no response from your CO monitor

I'll remember that in case I can't make my XF loan payments - I won't use my XF to end it all.

 

Both catalytic converters cracked on XF

Both my Jag XF's catalytic converters are cracked on a car that is 3.5 years old and just outside of warranty!!!! The car has been sat at Jaguar for the last 3 days as I will not authorise repair until I get a full technical explanation as to how this has happened and assurances that the fault will not reoccur. Has anyone got any ideas?

The customer services are not giving me update calls when they say they will. They were supposed to get back to me 3 times this week and each time I have had to chase them the following morning.

This is not what I expected when buying a Jaguar, very disappointing

 

Same problem!!!

Hi - I have exactly the same problem. Both down pipes (top part of the Cat) are cracked at the weld – confirmed by Jaguar today!! I can still use the car but you can smell fumes leaking out when stationary (its only a small leak, nothing visible once the engine is warm). My car is a 2.7D, also 3.5 years old.. sound familiar??!!

I’ve contacted jaguar cars to see if they can help pay to fix it. Have you done the same? Do you have a reference number for your case so I can mention I’m not the only one!

Please keep me informed with your progress and I will do the same. I’m very disappointed too, clearly a design / manufacturing fault from day one. I wouldn’t consider this cat design fit for purpose!

 

carbon monoxide in cabin from broken catalytic converters!!!!

Oh this is very interesting to see we are not the only ones with these problems. We believe these Cats are not fit for purpose but we also feel they are dangerous. The gases leaking from the Cats include carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides and hydrocardbons, none of which are healthy as they are leaking into the cabin when the car is stationary. The first one can cause you to fall asleep at the wheel whilst driving with inimaginable consequences (this is the gas that they check for in domestic gas fires which kill people if they leak). To me this seems a very important safety issue that needs investigating, explaining and rectifying before there is a serious accident.

However no explanation other than "vibration and heat" causes this has been given, we want a thorough explanation of how "vibration and heat" cause it and why the Cats are not built to withstand it. (I have googled Cats are they are supposed to last the lifetime of the car). We have had no reassurance that it won't happen again if we do get this fixed at considerable expense and we have been told "we would have to pay additionally for such a diagnosis!"

I am waiting for a reply from Nicola as she was out of the office on Friday. If there is no better resolution tomorrow then we will be seriously considering our options.

I will update you tomorrow!

Hi - I have exactly the same problem. Both down pipes (top part of the Cat) are cracked at the weld – confirmed by Jaguar today!! I can still use the car but you can smell fumes leaking out when stationary (its only a small leak, nothing visible once the engine is warm). My car is a 2.7D, also 3.5 years old.. sound familiar??!!

I’ve contacted jaguar cars to see if they can help pay to fix it. Have you done the same? Do you have a reference number for your case so I can mention I’m not the only one!

Please keep me informed with your progress and I will do the same. I’m very disappointed too, clearly a design / manufacturing fault from day one. I wouldn’t consider this cat design fit for purpose!

 

mbgaldjh Sorry to read that you appear to have the same issue as JOOLZI
Jaguar are investigating this matter and I am sure we will discover their view in due course.

 

Hi pekem – when you say Jaguar are investigating do you have any contacts in Jaguar Car to mention? Are you affiliated with Jaguar or just an owner like me?

I’m trying to get as much info as possible on this. It looks like thousands of pounds worth of work and totally ruined my weekend . You wouldn’t believe the problems I’ve had with this car...

As strange as it sounds it does make me feel a little better that I’m not the only one...not that I would wish these problems on anyone!!

 

I suggest that you raise your concerns with Nicola Here . I am sure that will assist the technical dept.

 

I have fumes filling the car every time I am stationary. Have lifted the bonnet and can see smoke billowing from the passenger side exhaust (? not sure about the area as it is very difficult to see). Anyway, I rang my local Jaguar dealer and explained that the fumes were coming into the car... they replied "is it an XF?" to which I replied that it obviously must be a common fault! - no response - They then told me that they expected it to be the Catalytic converter seals and usually this meant that they would replace the Cat for the small sum of £990.
Not very happy with their response and only just out of warranty at the end of September, I asked why this wasn't a recall for safety. They replied that this is a general maintenance issue

 

I agree with the other posters. I have a 2008 car with one cracked and it should be a recall issue. CO leaking in to the car? Not a safety issue? These are the sort of things Jaguar need to sort to build a reputation like the Germans. This is not a budget car, I have owned early (1965) S type, XJs, X types and XF. Loyalty only lasts so long, every German car I have owned has been more reliable They should deal with it. They arn't learning, get it right or follow Triumph, Rover MG and the rest down the tubes.

 

I agree with the other posters. I have a 2008 car with one cracked and it should be a recall issue. CO leaking in to the car? Not a safety issue? These are the sort of things Jaguar need to sort to build a reputation like the Germans. This is not a budget car, I have owned early (1965) S type, XJs, X types and XF. Loyalty only lasts so long, every German car I have owned has been more reliable ......

Reliability is an issue - Yes ... Should Jaguar do something about the cracked converters - Yes

But I would not agree with the perception the german brands (which I drove until a little while ago) are that much better. I had a 5 serial touring with the panoramic sunroof (large, two parts). That roof was leaking water into the bottom of the trunk where all the electronics of the car where placed. A design fault. Result ... after a while the car would go haywire. Not able to change gear (auto), not able to start, displaying all kinds of imaginary faults ... and so on.

It was a known fact to BMW (long before I bought mine, which was not one of the first but quite some time into production) that this would happen to most car´s with that roof. There where a few changes in the setup after they knew but they did´nt rectify the fault. Did they do more about it - NO.
When it happend to my car they told me that I must have carried something in the trunk, spilling water in there myself. Only when I found out that it was a known fault they accepted it. But being 4 weeks out of warranty (only 2 years over here) they where trying to have me carry some of the cost myself. Only after the intervention of my original dealer they agreed to try and correct the fault .... it took three new roofes and a couple of month actually until everything was sorted.

Well, that post has become quite long already and I haven´t even talked about my experiene with two of my Merc´s. So why am I ramping on about that? .. Maybe just to express my surprise about Jaguar having that bad a reputation and the German brands do not.

 

I’ve had a good look at the car and managed to improve it significantly by moving the cats position slightly (compressing the leaking joint) as a temporary fix. Being an engineer with over 10 years experience this is one of the worst engineering solutions to a very basic problem - Engine vibration.
Every car has a flexible exhaust joint – most are 4-6 inches long to soak up the vibration for 250K plus miles. In the XF its about 1 inch long!! No surprise it cracks. There is no way a flexi section that long can cope with a large diesel engines vibration. What planet the “engineer” was on when he came up with this “design” I don’t know... I need some of what he’s been smoking.. Why didn’t they just use the same flexi joint that has been used on a million other cars?? Insane..

To compound the problem they then welded this “genius” flexi design to one of the cars most expensive singular components – The catalytic converter. Not only is this item very expensive but it has a MASSIVE impact on the environment to produce (hence its price). So Jag want to suggest its normal to replace catalytic converters at regular intervals? This TOTALLY defeats the point of the catalytic converters existence! – to minimise the cars impact on the environment, laughable really.
It’s also laughable to suggest crashing the car, killing everyone inside, because you’ve passed out, because the catalytic converter flexi is cracked and leaking gas into the cabin, because it’s a terrible design, is not worthy of a recall. The judge will love that one...

Anyway 3k of work for jag to fix, plus a huge impact on the environment – Or take the cats of the car and repair / replace the flexi for £15 and no impact on the environment. Guess which I did?

My Advice to ALL Jag XF Owners – Start saving for your new cats now if you can’t do the work yourself. Work on them lasting 3 years. So 3 pounds a day should do it.

 

Nice one mbgaldjh,

How bad were the cats to remove?, I have a 2 post ramp so that should help, I haven't got this problem but it would be nice to know how bad a job it is to get the cats off.

Kind Regards

Alfie

 

nice one mbgaldjh,

how bad were the cats to remove?, i have a 2 post ramp so that should help, i haven't got this problem but it would be nice to know how bad a job it is to get the cats off.

Kind regards

alfie

bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hi mbgaldjh

I have had similar problems with my 2.7 XF and not had any joy with Jag customer services, though I wont give up just yet as I think this is a safety issue and in need for a recall. Would you mind telling me where or which flexible joints you purchased in order to fix the problem should I have no luck.

Regards

Paul

 

With my almost 4 years old XF 2.7D driven for 110,000 KM, I really would like to know if you guys advice me to check this matter with my Jaguar dealer? Safety is very important for me, there seems to be a real engineering fault as far as I understand and I don't feel comfortable waiting for a breakdown with my car.
Is there any insight about Jaguar doing a recall, Pekem?

 

I found this information:

The 3.0-litre diesel capitalises on the car's lightweight design with weight saving measures of its own it uses numerous aluminium parts and a cylinder block made from compact graphite iron which is stronger than conventional iron and allows a smaller block to be used. The Exhaust Gas Recirculation system channels exhaust gasses back into the engine where more of the pollutants are burned off. In combination with the advanced combustion system, this means that the XF diesel doesn't need catalytic converters or particulate filters to meet European emissions regulations, which further reduces costs. (http://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/jaguar/jaguar_xf/review_jaguar_xf_3_0_diesel_3174.jhtml)

Is the info right that the catalytic convertor is not used on the 3 liter diesels, but only with the 2.7 liter diesel XF?

 

It might not NEED cats / DPFs to met the regs but it certainly has a DPF (see the forum for all the DPF probs). I cant be certain it has a Cat but I would certainly expect so.

 

Hi – Sorry about the delay.

The good news is that you can see if there is a problem fairly easily. Get the car up on ramps / axle stands, removed the front under tray (6 bolts). The cats (wide section in the exhaust) are mounted vertically on either side of the gearbox. At the top of the Cats there is a 90 degree elbow, At the end of the elbow is the flexi joint and flange that bolts to the back of the turbo flange. The flexi joint is covered by a wire gasket. If the wire gasket and surrounding area (heat shield) is black with soot then the flexi is leaking..

Now, removing the cats is awkward – like every job it’s about having the correct tools! The cats are fixed to the car in 3 places and have 2 electrical sensors. First is an exhaust clamp between the Cat and DPF – very easy to remove. Second is a bracket around the cat – 3 bolts, also easy to remove but you will need a socket with extension bar. Before you remove these 3 bolts make sure you support the cat so all the weight isn’t on the flexi joint. Third, and very awkward, are the three nuts which clamp the turbo and cat flange together. You will need a few long socket set extension bars and two universal joints. Its impossible to get a spanner in there… Fortunately they aren’t very tight, in fact on TOPIX it doesn’t even give a torque, just “Loosely tighten”. Its well worth a look on TOPIX by the way.

When you put the Cats back make sure they are perfectly orientated, they must be perfectly vertical and exactly 90 degrees to the turbo – As bad as the flexi design is I think poor installation was partly the cause in my car, they were not mounted perfectly vertical, this puts excess strain on an already very poor flexible joint. I didn’t replace the flexi – it had split at the flange so just had a it re-welded to the flange. 5 min job once the things were off the car!!

So in summary the fault was caused, like most things in life, by numerous minor problems – Bad design, a poor engineering solution, poor detail manufacture (welding) and poor installation (not straight). The result – busted flexi…

 

Brilliant information thanks very much
Alfie

 

Is the Cats problem, when observed, the result of age or mileage? Would any of those who have experienced the problem be kind enough to record their approximate mileage when first noticed. Have any low mileage owners with 2.7D vehicles in the 3 to 4 years old age group had similar negative experiences with their Cats. Mine has done 21000 miles in coming up for 4 years (Mar 12) and so far no problem.

Is driving style a factor or is it all down to poor engineering? If any victim of the syndrome gets cross with this question I will fully appreciate their feelings and apologise in advance.

 

Good point any answers would be welcome, mine is nearly 4yrs old and has 16.500mls on it and no probs yet.

Alfie

 

I bought mine used about a year ago, it´s an early production 2,7D, and got a 24000 kms/24 mnth additional warranty from the seller. Just had it in to check for warranty problems with local Jaguar dealer, and guess what: the diesel exhaust smell in the car when stationary comes from two cracked flexible joints to the cats. I assume this will be covered by the extra warranty, but I too would like some feedback from Jaguar on this. 120000 kms and almost four years is no acceptable lifetime for a cat!

 

Well, I have an update. I visited the Jaguar dealer this week for a little practical matter and brought the cat-issue to the attention of the technical service guys. They responded that they had their first XF cat repair at the very moment I was there. They showed me the report that was lying on their desk with the cost details. It costed around 1000 euro's and I believed them that it was their first issue with it, by the way they responded to my subject. They told me that the driver had passengers in his car who smelt a little gasonline in the car, very little which he couldn't smell himself as he was used to it apparently. They discovered the black heat shield as described above and had to replace the unit, they thought that the leaking was from place where the flexible joint was attached to the cat, at the ring/sealing, a little burst at the ring. I told him about this Jaguar forum thread and info from an engineer expert about the kind of weak construction in his opinion. The service guys told me that there was no official recall/update about this matter from Jaguar UK, but that they will check the XF cars they have in service themselves to be sure and will do that with at the next service moment with my XF in February. I don't smell any weirds in my XF, but I don't have a very sensitive nose... ;-)

My suggestion to remove the cat and not replacing it if there is an issue with cat was not so easy according to my dealer. There are sensors before and after the cat who are feeding the engine computer with data. Removing a cat means reprogramming the engine system which is not something a dealer is able to do.

 

In answer to the question above mine made it to 55k miles.

Bit more info, I would be cautious of dealers saying they have never seen this / no idea what you’re on about... There is a technical bulletin on topix about it.. Specifically mentions cracked flexis, and its dated well over 12 months ago!! I find it quite insulting that the dealers think ‘us owners’ are too stupid to look on topix and read... If I were a dealer/ jaguar customer services, I would expect Jaguar owners to be at least of average intelligence... engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers etc...

My local dealer also said they hadn’t seen it before however a fellow ‘forum goer’ told me he had the cats replaced at the same dealer only a few months before!!– dealer response... “oh yeah now we remember” – funny that... such a unusual fault that managed to slip their mind...

Clearly Jaguar are well aware of it, and it is common – hence the bulletin. Fortunately for Jaguar it doesn’t usually occur inside 3 years and customer service is not their forte. I pushed for Jaguar to repair the car – they offered a small contribution which considering the circumstances (I found the fault while the car was under warranty but jag said ‘no fault sir’) I was astonished. This meant now the car was out of warranty and I would need to part with huge amount of cash as Jag will only replace, not fix the cats. I refused. I was not prepared for jaguar to profit from this problem.
If I was cynical I would say the flexis have deliberately been made weak/poor so they will fail eventually – unethical on so many levels it’s untrue. Either that or the engineering is just terrible and nobody spotted it. Its hard to say which is worse to be honest...

Anyway I’m 26 – I have my whole car future ahead of me. None of which will involve a jaguar again, and I love British brands... Don’t get me wrong, I was lucky, I’m able to fix the car myself for virtually nothing and at no point was it “off the raod”... but that’s not the point. I would love a conversation with the customer relations director – in fact should you happen to read this PM me.

Jaguar – “Beautiful design, poor engineering”

To name a few examples..

Flexis, Diff, Keys, discs and pads (are they actually made from recycled tin cans??), gear selector module, boot opener, boot loom, fuel flap, air con pipes, auto wipers... the list is endless – ALL are BASIC faults which a GCSE kid doing engineering could have fixed at concept design phase!!

 

If anyone's thinking of removing the cats, the new MOT rules (which are advisory at the moment but come into force on the first of April) now make this a fail point.
More related information Here and here

John

 

I wish i had those fancy spanners!! Had a nightmare with those nuts... Are you a Jag tech? I take it youve fixed the flexi(s) before then?

 

I take it youve fixed the flexi(s) before then?

I've replaced a few

 

I am fearing the worst. When I was on the motorway last week and needed extra oomph I changed down two gears and hit the gas. I heard a strange type of squeal/screech/whistle which I haven't heard before, but I couldn't be sure it was my car because of the other cars around.

Then sitting at traffic lights yesterday I could smell something like burned diesel fumes which made me think of this problem, but they could have been from another car.

When I got out of the car I noticed the engine didn't sound very smooth either, so I wondered does this problem cause an uneven soft chugging noise at idle as well, although I couldn't see or smell any fumes under the bonnet?

I don't want to dismantle the underneath to look for soot and the car is due to go to dealers for service/2nd MOT in two weeks anyway, so I will mention it for them to check - before extended warranty runs out.

 

Then sitting at traffic lights yesterday I could smell something like burned diesel fumes which made me think of this problem, but they could have been from another car.
When I got out of the car I noticed the engine didn't sound very smooth either, so I wondered does this problem cause an uneven soft chugging noise at idle as well, although I couldn't see or smell any fumes under the bonnet?

This could just be the DPF going through its cleaning proceedure which is perfectly normal.

John

 

It sounds like you should mention it to the dealers.

A bit of a back-of-the-***-packet test to check your exhaust is intact is to do the following:

When the car is cold, turn on the ignition and ensure it is in park with the EPB on.
Get out the car and grab a dry rag - cover your hand with it.
Briefly place your hand over the exhaust (or both of them!) and the back pressure should cause the engine to struggle to run. This is a good thing and shows the exhaust is intact.
If you listen to the exhaust and hear a hissing noise, it may be an indication of an air leak in the system.
You shouldn't do this if the car is hot (exhaust temp) and you shouldn't rev when you're doing it either as you might damage the engine.