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Winter Tyres I have. This is my position on the matter

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Before you go down that road and have a big off be aware that modern summer tires are completely unable to develop grip at freezing temperatures. And I do mean completely.

If you would like a clear demonstration of the unbelievably superior grip offered by a modern winter tire please feel free to catch the next flight to my town. We have enough snow. Bring a pair of brown courduroys to wear....

I'm hoping (trusting) the ESP system will sort things out but I am aware that in exceptional circumstances it won't stop the car ending up in a ditch......or worse.
 

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I'm hoping (trusting) the ESP system will sort things out but I am aware that in exceptional circumstances it won't stop the car ending up in a ditch......or worse.
I can assure you that it will not. The lack of grip occurs on dry and bare roads at temperatures below 7C. It's the rubber compound they use. In the cold and wet or on ice or snow the grip drops to zero.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

I fit Michelin A/S 3 all season high performance tires to my supercharged Subaru, for summer use! I have experience with the summer version of a previous model the PS2. Night and day. The Michelin A/S plus was exceptionally good in cold weather but the A/S 3 is really impressive. I fit Pirelli Sottozero series II for winter. My little Subie has half the power of the XFR but even winter tires provide insufficient grip.

The stability and traction control do not develop grip, they ensure that the driver slides straight off the road.
 

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I can assure you that it will not. The lack of grip occurs on dry and bare roads at temperatures below 7C. It's the rubber compound they use. In the cold and wet or on ice or snow the grip drops to zero.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

I fit Michelin A/S 3 all season high performance tires to my supercharged Subaru, for summer use! I have experience with the summer version of a previous model the PS2. Night and day. The Michelin A/S plus was exceptionally good in cold weather but the A/S 3 is really impressive. I fit Pirelli Sottozero series II for winter. My little Subie has half the power of the XFR but even winter tires provide insufficient grip.

The stability and traction control do not develop grip, they ensure that the driver slides straight off the road.

I have this morning checked the price and availability of winter tyres. Very expensive and very little choice in the size I need.

All-season tyres may be a better option although after watching your video there will clearly be a compromise with grip. One thing, Mr Jagular, thankfully winters here are rarely as bad as you have in the Yukon or Northwest territory.
 

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I have this morning checked the price and availability of winter tyres. Very expensive and very little choice in the size I need.

All-season tyres may be a better option although after watching your video there will clearly be a compromise with grip. One thing, Mr Jagular, thankfully winters here are rarely as bad as you have in the Yukon or Northwest territory.
oddly, the slipperiest ice and snow occurs close to freezing point. At minus 30C even glare ice gives better traction than at zero C. The worst winter driving apart from deep dry snow, a rare event, is provided right behind my house. A sudden warming of very cold partly packed snow.

In the UK south of Northumberland, all weather tires or even all season tires will be adequate. You would buy all season or all weather tires to use year round though. If you switch tire sets then winters make sense.

As for the cost that is merely the opportunity cost of buying the second set of tires four years early, assuming you run about 10,000 miles per year. Summer tires and winter tires tend to last about 20,000 miles if you're lucky, which is four years for two sets. Tires only last five to seven years before the rubber goes too hard to be useful.
 

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In many countries including here in Switzerland the use of winter tyres during the winter months is compulsory. This has less to do with snow - although the tread pattern is as previously (and I think repeatedly) noted optimised for better grip - and more to do with the performance of the rubber in temperatures below 7 Centigrade / 44 Fahrenheit. That isn't a matter of personal opinion, it's a fact and I am astonished how the debate rages on this point. This means that if you can afford a car, you afford the changeover of tyres either by refitting and rebalancing on original rims, or by keeping a second set of rims. Yes many cars here drive around on ugly steel rims during the winter; luxury cars such as ours do not.

Folks, if a loved one was - God forbid - hit by a car whose driver had foregone winter tyres, and this made all the difference between life and death / life-changing injuries, would you still be so precious about not fitting winter tyres when the conditions demand it?

On a more positive note, thanks to recent snowfall a couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to try the Snow & Ice driving mode. Even with a manual gearbox (and winter tyres!) it makes a big and welcome difference.

EDIT: cannot edit my profile to say I drive a 2017 model X260
 

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In many countries including here in Switzerland the use of winter tyres during the winter months is compulsory. This has less to do with snow - although the tread pattern is as previously (and I think repeatedly) noted optimised for better grip - and more to do with the performance of the rubber in temperatures below 7 Centigrade / 44 Fahrenheit. That isn't a matter of personal opinion, it's a fact and I am astonished how the debate rages on this point. This means that if you can afford a car, you afford the changeover of tyres either by refitting and rebalancing on original rims, or by keeping a second set of rims. Yes many cars here drive around on ugly steel rims during the winter; luxury cars such as ours do not.

Folks, if a loved one was - God forbid - hit by a car whose driver had foregone winter tyres, and this made all the difference between life and death / life-changing injuries, would you still be so precious about not fitting winter tyres when the conditions demand it?

On a more positive note, thanks to recent snowfall a couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to try the Snow & Ice driving mode. Even with a manual gearbox (and winter tyres!) it makes a big and welcome difference.

EDIT: cannot edit my profile to say I drive a 2017 model X260
agree. proper winter set of tyres for winter, regardless of snow or not. if temps drop below 7 deg C, then winter tyres. simples
 

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Okay you may be making me think again.

Explain this for me please.

Pirelli Sotto Zero 285/30/20 99V XL (J) TL..............£315.25 each.
Pirelli Sotto Zero 285/30/20 99V XL TL.............£151.45 each....a very good price.

I understand the 'J' stands for Jaguar but I can't see any other difference.
 

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Okay you may be making me think again.

Explain this for me please.

Pirelli Sotto Zero 285/30/20 99V XL (J) TL..............£315.25 each.
Pirelli Sotto Zero 285/30/20 99V XL TL.............£151.45 each....a very good price.

I understand the 'J' stands for Jaguar but I can't see any other difference.
The J doesn't mean anything. Porsche started this whole "custom spec " tire nonsense with their N markings. Mercedes uses an MOE. The tire maker decides on the specification. The car makers want their customers to think they tell the tire companies to make "special " versions just for them. They don't. Buy the cheaper tire.

Pirelli can make 75 million tires a year. Jaguar builds maybe 100,000 cars a year so generously half a million tires in what? Ten sizes? Sure Pirelli is constantly on the phone anxiously asking JLR engineers if their last batch of tires was up to snuff....
 

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Okay you may be making me think again.

Explain this for me please.

Pirelli Sotto Zero 285/30/20 99V XL (J) TL..............£315.25 each.
Pirelli Sotto Zero 285/30/20 99V XL TL.............£151.45 each....a very good price.

I understand the 'J' stands for Jaguar but I can't see any other difference.
indeed, means jaguar - tells people is jaguar approved tyre - go with cheaper tyre as it will be exactly the same :) although 151.45 for 285's...it might be very old stock - worth checking...
 

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indeed, means jaguar - tells people is jaguar approved tyre - go with cheaper tyre as it will be exactly the same :) although 151.45 for 285's...it might be very old stock - worth checking...
I have just contacted the seller.

The £315 tyre is a Sotto Zero 3 and the £151 tyre is a Sotto Zero 2 (with a different tread pattern)

Apparently both will work fine but the cheaper tyre was manufactured about 3 years ago.

Shouldn't be a problem.
 

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I have just contacted the seller.

The £315 tyre is a Sotto Zero 3 and the £151 tyre is a Sotto Zero 2 (with a different tread pattern)

Apparently both will work fine but the cheaper tyre was manufactured about 3 years ago.

Shouldn't be a problem.

Winter tires are junk after five years. Reason is the softer rubber turns harder each year it ages.

Buy the Sottozero III. It is a much improved tire and those Sottozero II are aged out.
 

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shouldn't, give or take 2-3 winters being used - so still within it's life span :)
Yes, right now. But in three or at least four years, their life span will be expired. So it depends on, how long you'll want to use them. On top of that, the newer version of the tire should be a better tire.
 

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I just had a look at the website of Michelin. They actually say, that the tires should be changed, when they are ten years old. That's several years older, than what is normally recommended. Perhaps Michelins last longer ;-)
I have just gotten my father's XF. The summer tires are from 2008, and the winter tires are from 2010. I'm planning on getting new tires, since everybody (except Michelin apparently) seems to think, they are too old. That also gives me an opportunity to have the rims painted, while the tires are off.
 

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Ten years is considered to be maximum safe life, by Michelin and others. The tire compound becomes essentially useless after 5-7 years.
 

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Ten years is considered to be maximum safe life, by Michelin and others. The tire compound becomes essentially useless after 5-7 years.
That's strange, they consider tires safe for that many years. I remember years ago, we had some seven year old winter tyres. I normally buy Michelin, but once they gave me some Klebér, so I'm not 100% sure about the brand. Anyway, they clearly didn't grip well anymore. Starting quickly from a red light easily made the wheels spin, which they hadn't done yearlier in their life. They were of course also a little worn, but I normally change my tires rather early, so I'm sure, they still had a few millimetres of thread.

I can of course understand, that a tyre manufacturer won't say publicly, that their tires won't last long. On the other hand, it must be in their interest to sell more tires. It's my impression, that it's more or less common knowledge, that the rubber compound becomes hard after 5-7 years. And I suppose, that is for winter as well as summer tires. So how much harm would it do to Michelin, if they admitted that?
 

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That's strange, they consider tires safe for that many years. I remember years ago, we had some seven year old winter tyres. I normally buy Michelin, but once they gave me some Klebér, so I'm not 100% sure about the brand. Anyway, they clearly didn't grip well anymore. Starting quickly from a red light easily made the wheels spin, which they hadn't done yearlier in their life. They were of course also a little worn, but I normally change my tires rather early, so I'm sure, they still had a few millimetres of thread.

I can of course understand, that a tyre manufacturer won't say publicly, that their tires won't last long. On the other hand, it must be in their interest to sell more tires. It's my impression, that it's more or less common knowledge, that the rubber compound becomes hard after 5-7 years. And I suppose, that is for winter as well as summer tires. So how much harm would it do to Michelin, if they admitted that?
The difference is tread compound which deteriorates with heat cycles (and ozone exposure) and carcass strength which is purely age related. Winter tires start to "go off" after four years in my experience. I have successfully run Nokian Hakka Q tires for ten years but only because they are so very grippy from new. Frankly, my SAAB grips the road so well I failed to notice how bad the tires were getting. After five years any snow tire is in effect an all season tire.

So Michelin (and others) is just saying after ten years they won't stand behind their tires from an absolute failure perspective. However, all the tire makers agree 5-7 years is maximum tread life regardless of tread depth. For ultra or max performance tires I'd say three years is the most you could expect before grip tapers off noticeably.
 

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It'll soon be that time of year again. I have a technical question. Assuming the crossover is 7C, which is worse: driving on summer tyres at 3C or driving on winter tyres at 11C?
 

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Summer tires at 3C. I'm driving on Michelin Pilot A/S 3 at the moment. Minus 3 to plus 6 today and they're a bit of a joke compared to grip above 10C. Those are technically all season but comparable to some summer tires.

Provided your winters are T,H or V rated and not Q or R then they will grip just fine well above 7 C.

Better yet, buy yourself a set of Nokian WR all weather tires and you can stop asking the question. With the WR you can run all year if you want so you change out your summers as soon as you get that queasy feeling...right about 7C.
 
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