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Discussion Starter #1
What is going on with XF sales in the US? The luxury car market is picking up big time, 5-series, E-class and Infiniti M sales are up in the 40-70% range for the past few months.

Yet XF sales are faltering big time.

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And Jaguar is trying to hide it. In addition to stopping reporting UK sales details/breakdown, Jaguar has now started to report only the "good" details of US sales numbers, and hiding the "bad" details.

Quite disappointing and immature in my opinion. Like bad news doesn't spread out.

So, in any event, I don't have time to chase out the info today, so I'll post the easier to find data.

Jaguar sales are down 3% in November - the worst performance of all luxury brands in the US - even with the aid of the new XJ, which was not on the menu last year.

XF sales cratered again, with the XJ outselling it again - 512 XJ sales, with XK + XF sales totaling 605 combined. I estimate XF sales at 430 which is a huge drop from the 973 XF sales in Nov/09.

Clearly the XF is encountering serious challenges in the US market, and Jaguar trying to hide it, is not going to solve the problem.

Competitive Set Data - November 2010 vs November 2009

Maserati - Up 66% to 166
Rolls Royce - Up 62% to 42
Maybach - Up 50% to 9
Porsche - Up 49% to 2,416
Ferrari - Up 46% to 172
Infiniti - Up 45% 8,182
Audi - Up 38% to 9,365
BMW - Up 30% to 20,097
Acura - Up 22% to 10,718
Bentley - Up 21% to 159
Cadillac - Up 21% to 11,801
Lincoln - Up 20% to 7,648
Mercedes - Up 13%19,037

Lexus - Down 1% to 18,240
Jaguar - Down 3% to 1,117
 

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Wall Street Journal


Small misinterpretation Baron95: Mercedes-Benz car sales down 0.6% with 10,724 units (across a large range)...

Interesting reading and I'll leave you to interpret at your leisure. As SUB says, a bit of a bizarre first posting. Are you a disgruntled Jaguar customer Baron95?

One of the biggest segment growth is achieved by the luxury SUV sector. Very politically incorrect! :)
 
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The XJ & XF are competitors in the same segment. The lost XF sales have been taken by the XJ. Overall Jaguar sales are level year on year.
 
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Jaguar has a 3 model line up in the US....with basically 1 engine used across the range.....remember no diesels in the US....Petrol is King across the pond....If you check out the model range/list prices and Engine options of all it`s major competitors Jaguar is a minnow in shark infested pool...In summary it`s a very minor player selling 3 expensive cars.
 

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baron95 I will leave it to others to analyse your figures, they just bore me :)
It is however a subject worth discussing even though we are unlikely to discover the reason why XF Sales in the US are down about 60% as you assert.
Of course It may be that Jaguar are far more sanguine about their performance than you.
Read a recent interview with Carl-Peter Forster, a man I know you regard as a "retread failure" Here.
We will not be told what the 10 year plan is but it is certain that China is an important market in the future and it is worth emphasising that the global demand for Jaguars and Land Rovers is helping push Indian owner Tata Motors back into profit.
The parent group reported net profits of 19.9bn rupees (£272m) for the three months to the end of June this year, compared with a loss of 3.3bn rupees in the same period last year. Revenues shot up by 64 per cent to 271bn rupees The Independent
America as a market may at present be seen as less important than China and India where success is anticipated as reported Here in India; these are the countries that are the focus of the British government's efforts to stimulate the UK economy.
Given that the production capacity of Jaguar is not that of a major German or US car maker the question might simply be that China and India offers more at present than the US.
Where would you put your money :?:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well, first off, I'm one of the few people here, that is a repeat XF buyer. I traded my 09 XF-Supercharged, for a 2010 XFR. So clearly not disgruntled.

I'm not sure about the reference to Mercedes sales being down, since they are up, by the amount I posted, and Mercedes and BMW both shot past Lexus to lead US luxury sales volume (not that volume is everything). The direct competitor to the XF, E-Class sales in November were 4,986 bringing its year-to-date total to 55,869 - up 25.4%.

The reference to Jaguar models being expensive, is not so in the US. A comparably equipped V8 BMW 550i series or Mercedes E550, are about $15-$20K more than an XF, for instance. (though it is true that total cost of ownership is closer due to lower finance/lease charges and higher residuals for the Germans). The $53K, 385HP XF Luxury, is priced the same as the E-350 (282HP, no leather seats).

My interest is understanding why, with such a good product, and so aggressively priced, the XF sales are running less than half what they used to run.

I agree that there is some crossover from XF to XJ (but less than most think due to price/size differences). Conversely, how many X-type owners walk in to trade in or lease end their cars and find that they need to step up to the XF to stay Jag? That is why I've been watching this since the XJ launch, and waiting till the pent up demand and XJ "launch effect" subsided.

Today, you can walk into any Jaguar dealership in the US, and a have a pick of a couple of dozen or more XJs and XFs to choose from the lot. Including so called "special order" XJ Supersports and XFR. So volume is not the answer. And pent up orders is not a factor.

The S-class and 7-series are just about as new (and boring) as the new 5-series and E-class. Yes, Infiniti M is new. But there is nothing out of the ordinary in the competition. No blockbuster. The Panamera is a huge hit, but its transaction prices are about twice the XF's. Maybe the V6 Panamera at $80K (typical) is eating, at most, a tiny bit into it.

So the XF seems to be the only grossly underperforming performance/luxury model in the US market. Aren't you curious why? I am.

If you think the XF full potential in the US in only 400-odd vehicles/month, fine. If you think Jaguar sales going down 3% when all the competitors (but haunted/boring Lexus) is going up by double digits is OK, fine.

If you think India (where only 422 total Jaguars and Land Rovers were sold in the entire last fiscal year) is the promise land, good luck with that. If you think Forster's repeated press release that they are narrowing the look, for a possible partner, in the future, to some day have a joint venture, to at some time, make cars in China, means he can take his eye off the ball in the US, fine.

But if you have ideas as to why the XF sales are going down by so much in the largest luxury market in the world, I'd really love to hear your opinions.

Is it lack of captive financing arm like Mercedes Benz Financial?

Is the poor reliability record on JD Power?

Is it poor marketing campaigns?

Is it lack of AWD? <<<<<<<<< I happen to think this may be a big one

Any ideas?

Is this the same reason why BMW and Mercedes sell well in the UK, but Jaguar XF sales are virtually non existant in Germany?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 
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Hi Baron.....for what it`s worth I think the sales drop compared to it`s competitors is because the big players all have smaller, cheaper models in their line up`s....Money is tight and many punters are downsizing.....I still browse Audi and BMW forums and most of the US forum members of these sites have bought Audi A3 Sportbacks and 3 series BMW`s....I`am sure the B and C class Merc`s are also finding new buyers.

I think your point about 4wd is also a valid one.....lets face it, vast area`s of the US mainland freeze over for 4 months every year....I think Audi only sells it`s Quattro models in the US....and BMW sell`s AWD models in both Europe and the US(I think they even produce 3/5 series AWD models.)....and the SUV market in the US is huge.

I`am not sure about the reliability......every forum is full of posts from disgruntled owners of every Marquee....A5 forums are littered with posts about interior rattles and sagging leather seats(+DPF issues from diesel owning European owners....were not alone on that one)

Another possibility is that US punters are electing to buy home grown products.....for obvious reasons.....Remember the buy British campaigns of the 1970`s.

Despite competitive pricing from Jaguar.....at the end of the day their still expensive cars when compared to Audi A3/BMW 3 Series and Mercedes B/C classes
It would be interesting to see how Audi A4/5/8.. BMW5/7 and Mercedes E/S class sales are faring.....I think these models are the XF and XJ`s direct competitors.

Having said all that Jaguar still only has a 3 model line up.....It`s a minnow compared to the vast array of models it`s major competitors produce.

Porsche and Maserati have their own distinct brand identity....and punters who buy a 911 or Cayman wont even take a look at a Jag.....edit...forgot about the XK :oops:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Just one more quick comment on Mr. Foster and Tata and the Indian market....

/* Rant starts (with apologies)...

Some of you may be impressed by all the press releases and off-hand empty media statements of Mr. Foster. "We'll definitely close one of the the three factories.", two weeks later "We are studying if we will or will not close", "Now we won't close" - yes that guy. For 2 months now issuing semi-monthly press releases "We are close to talking to a partner in China", "We are evaluating shared work with India." Yes that guy.

Let me tell you what he is not doing.

He is not keeping market share in the US or Europe.

And

Get this...

He/Tata got completely blindsided in their home Indian market. The Tata Nano is piling up at factory and dealer lots. Sales are down, get this 85%. Latest excuse from Mr. Foster - customers can't get financing. Seriously? The booming market, the Tata/JLR salvation market can't sell $3,000 cars? All their competitors are booming and selling cars. Ford is doing great. So are the Japanese joint ventures.

What is the deal Mr. foster? Losing at the top in the US and at the bottom in India?

How many Tata Nanos did Mr. Foster sell in November?

5 0 9

Tata inherited the XK, XF, and XJ designs complete from Ford (actually they bought them). It seems to me, they are grossly mismanaging the potential of the cars.

And now they prove incompetent as a company to keep pace selling a $3K car.

Watch Tata implode as competent competition moves in.

But he is really good at press releases :)

Rant ends (with more apologies) */
 

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Baron, you seem to have a good grasp of the industry and JLR. I have to say that I'm a simple customer who loves the XF and I come here to learn/share whatever with other enthusiasts. In all honesty, I am less concerned about market share even if I do understand that it is to my benefit if Tata/JLR do well as company, grow market share and make good profits.

Tata is a ginormous, hugely successful business and I cannot see them having someone at the top of their car division for very long if he indeed proves incapable.

Can we get back to winter tyres and wind noise now please!?
 

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baron95 said:
Rant starts



baron95, on our Facebook page it is reported:

"baron95" débuts on the Jaguar XF Forum in the guise it seems as a "shock jock"

I would only add that that you are a tonic for Forum Page Views :lol:
 

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I for one was attracted to Jag at first with the XK back in 2006 as the new shape looked stunning, was designed by Aston Martin designer, great performance and - the killer factor - not everyone had one.

Jags have always been expensive, and when they made the X type, that model just became too common. Even the lower range of XFs have become too much of a favourite for company leasers for my liking, although it is still not as common as the oh-so-boring major players (BMW yawn Merc yawn). It's a victim almost of it's own success although I understand Jag really needed it to sell well.

Sure the major players have a LOT more money to throw at construction and designing and research in this segment, but they will NEVER have the character of Jag and the cost premiums associated with owning a prestige and UNCOMMON vehicle but can still be used everyday for comfort and blistering performance.

I know - as mentioned - its in all our interests that Tata do things right, but I for one am HAPPY that my XFR is not as common the road as the not-that-common-anyway BMW M5 and the E63 AMG (just comparing direct competitors here).

And Tata are doing well to let that business model flourish (just without the constant historical hampering of Ford). The US buyers are a different breed and you have to examine the culture of buying there... The CTS-V has always been the favourite there compared to the XFR, but its the buyers who want to demonstrate class and refined tastes that go for something "from England"...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I too am very happy with my XFR, and in a few years I want to have a vibrant, uptodate and competitive Jaguar in the market to be my next car.

The XK, XF, XJ were developed under Ford, when Ford was underwriting Jaguar losses.

You seem to forget that Jaguar was near death before Ford.

Unless Tata Motors makes good decisions and Maintains/grows market share, the product line will grow stale, and all of us here will go back to buying German cars in the space of a few years.

The investments required to move to Turbocharged gas engines and hybrids to meet fuel economy requirements, and to fix the disappointing crash test performance, add AWD, etc will be very, very high.

If there is no volume they won't happen.

I'm very disappointed that, Jaguar, while having the best model line up ever in it's history, is not being managed properly.

Look at their disastrous return to racing in the ALMS. They were absolutely dead last in the series, and finished only 2 races (IIRC). Why is this proud brand allowed to suffer such indignities?

The consequences will be no new/improved XF down the line.

The cars are too good, and deserve proper management. If you can't compete in the US, soon you will not be competitive anywhere. Indian market won't save you.
 

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[warning:28u27oy4]Please can we stick to the original question "What is happening with XF Sales in the US - Down about 60%"[/warning:28u27oy4]
 

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I agree with Pekem regarding returning to the question posed.

Please however may I challenge the "Jaguar is not being managed properly" - that my friend is utter rubbish! They are in better hands now than the inept Ford management.

Enough said, back to topic....
 

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Discussion Starter #18
twosheds said:
Please however may I challenge the "Jaguar is not being managed properly" - that my friend is utter rubbish! They are in better hands now than the inept Ford management.

Enough said, back to topic....
What metric are you using to make that assertion. Is market share going up or down? Is reliability going up or down? Are production costs going up or down? Are you aware that while Ford got concessions from the UAW, Unite extracted huge pay raises from JLR for the next two years, and DHL logistics ( who handles JLR supply chain) are about to strike for similar increases? Are JLR production costs competitive?

I think Jaguar is riding a product peak - 3 new models, all with brand new engines. If share is going down and costs are going up, they are being mismanaged in my opinion.

Results speak louder than press releases in my book. What happens when the novelty of the XJ wears off? Where is growth going to come from? The auto biz is a marathon, not a sprint.
 

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baron95 I think it is plain that a definitive answer to the question you originally posed: "What is happening with XF Sales in the US - Down about 60%" is unlikely to be provided by readers that are primarily based in the UK with, in my view, little interest in the US market and more importantly, readers that take a balanced view of the reports emanating from both Jaguar and independent observers.
Your contribution, which in your own words was described as a "rant" is unlikely to attract serious contributions and for that reason I will close the topic.
I am sure however you will be interested to learn more about Jaguar's long the term aims via the report here , and if you would care to subscribe, much more via the excellent news service Here :)
 
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