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In the space of a couple of months Jaguar executives have floated multiple dates for the I-Pace on-sale date ranging from late/2017 to 2nd half/2018 and everything in between. It seems like they can all say whatever they want. No one is held accountable at Jaguar for flat out lying toothier customers.
Magna must be getting an incredible amount of money for this contract, because of the inevitable damage to their A1 reputation from delays out of their control. Or maybe they foresee swooping in and taking over the Slovakia plant from a tits-up JLR, instead of bothering with their Slovenia plant.
 

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Like I say it's just hearsay, I don't think JLR can be blamed for what people said they said. Although I do believe they said the production model would be in Frankfurt, so if it is not that's a sign of delay and typical of what we are coming to expect. On the other hand so long as the I-pace is with us next year that is still in advance of the Model 3 and well ahead of anyone else. So long as it is not a complete turkey it should do well (or at least do whatever it is supposed to do in terms of meeting the requirements for selling BEVS to satisfy China and California etc. cf. posts from the usual suspects). An RHD Model 3 is not expected until 2019!
 

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I don't think a Model 3 would compete with an I-Pace. Completely different market segments. Even the Model Y would not compete with the I-Pace.

Model 3 is for practical and attractive transportation that just so happen to be an EV. I-Pace is a look at me vehicle, with no practical ability to do long trips due to lack of supercharger network, sold by a company that needed to be dragged kicking and screaming to change from a diesel to an EV.
 

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I don't think a Model 3 would compete with an I-Pace. Completely different market segments. Even the Model Y would not compete with the I-Pace.

Model 3 is for practical and attractive transportation that just so happen to be an EV. I-Pace is a look at me vehicle, with no practical ability to do long trips due to lack of supercharger network, sold by a company that needed to be dragged kicking and screaming to change from a diesel to an EV.
Err, I have a Tesla and the only time I ever needed the super charger network was after a catastrophic series of events, but mainly because Tesla had stolen my cables after attempting to fix a rattle - otherwise I would have charged from my parent's mains supply. Very few people in the UK regularly travel more than a couple of hundred miles in a journey. The I-pace could well be a practical and attractive transport vehicle. Or not.
 

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On the other hand so long as the I-pace is with us next year that is still in advance of the Model 3 and well ahead of anyone else.
Nope. Audi e-tron SUV:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-audi-e-tron-suv-race-jaguar-i-pace-market

Will be faster, lighter, better range, probably cheaper, but I'm sure the UK/US media will say it has 'character', or 'if you want a driver's car, get the Jag', which is code for 'it's hopeless, but our jobs depend on it'.

Jaguar can't catch a break, cutting and running with ICEs, due to being hopelessly outgunned, making a fanfare about electric, even roping in a proper car maker, and then still being a backmarker, like Formula E, when it comes to actually doing not PR-ing.

Speth and Butschek should be on the blower night and day to the Chinese trying to land a sale, as the future is a nightmare.
 

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Err, I have a Tesla and the only time I ever needed the super charger network was after a catastrophic series of events, but mainly because Tesla had stolen my cables after attempting to fix a rattle - otherwise I would have charged from my parent's mains supply. Very few people in the UK regularly travel more than a couple of hundred miles in a journey. The I-pace could well be a practical and attractive transport vehicle. Or not.
Before, responding, let me reemphasize, I think the I-Pace is a good think. Good to see Jaguar dipping its toes in the EV market.

Having said that, its limitations are horrendous compared to a Tesla. It is obvious that Tesla owners value their supercharging network. That is why they are heavily used and that is why the owners clamor for more and more supercharger stations. Tesla has ˜6,000 a year ago, will be ˜10,000 by the end of this year and ˜18,000 next year. The supercharger network and the ability to charge at 120KW+ vs the 50-maybe60KW max of the I-Pace is monumental.

It is not just long trips. A lot of people come home from a Friday commute and to change clothes, grab the backs and go on a longish weekend trip that same evening. The only practical way to do that is a supercharger boost.
 

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Before, responding, let me reemphasize, I think the I-Pace is a good think. Good to see Jaguar dipping its toes in the EV market.

Having said that, its limitations are horrendous compared to a Tesla. It is obvious that Tesla owners value their supercharging network. That is why they are heavily used and that is why the owners clamor for more and more supercharger stations. Tesla has ˜6,000 a year ago, will be ˜10,000 by the end of this year and ˜18,000 next year. The supercharger network and the ability to charge at 120KW+ vs the 50-maybe60KW max of the I-Pace is monumental.

It is not just long trips. A lot of people come home from a Friday commute and to change clothes, grab the backs and go on a longish weekend trip that same evening. The only practical way to do that is a supercharger boost.
There is something completely wrong with this "Tesla" supercharger network. If you drive a Mercedes, you don't have to go to a Mercedes petrol station. If you drive a Ford, you don't have to use a Ford petrol station to fill up your car. All ICE cars can be filled at any petrol station, whether they use petrol or diesel. And that's the right way to do it. We as consumers must demand, that the car manufacturers develop a common standard for charging EV's, so all charging stations can be used by all EV's.

I have tried for fun to see, how EV's can be charged here in Denmark. There are two large nationwide companies and even a few smaller ones, plus the Tesla network of course. So you have to decide, where you want to be a costumer and which card you want to carry around. I think there is a monthly fee, if you want the cheapest possible charge, so you can't just have costumer cards from all the charging station companies. But what if you are in a foreign town for a visit, and the only charging station nearby belongs to the wrong company? Then you can't charge your EV. That is completely silly. On top of that there seems to be three or four different connections, and even different voltage and AC or DC. So even if there is a charging station belonging to the right company near by, it may have the wrong connection and voltage for your specific EV. To me it seems completely silly, that it should be so complicated to charge an EV. The manufacturers must agree on a common standard, and we as consumers must insist on that. Imagine, you had to pay 50% overprice for petrol, if you didn't have a costumer card and paid a monthly fee to that petrol company.
 

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There is something completely wrong with this "Tesla" supercharger network. If you drive a Mercedes, you don't have to go to a Mercedes petrol station. If you drive a Ford, you don't have to use a Ford petrol station to fill up your car.
I don't understand your point.

If you drive a Tesla, you don't have to "fill up" (charge) at a Tesla supercharger either. Teslas can charge at any outlet, any home, any fast charging (e.g. CCS) port etc.

The only difference is that, in addition to being able to fill up at all those places, it also can fill up 3 times faster at a Tesla supercharger.

The reason being that only Tesla, and Tesla only, have figured out how to charge batteries at 120-145KW without destroying it.

The correct analogy is the iPhone. An iPhone can consume all the content available on the Internet, but on top of that the iPhone and only the iPhone can also consume all the content on the Apple App store.

Another analogy is the Disney Cruise I just took my 10 year old daughter one. It can do everything that every other cruise line can do (food, shows, comedy, pool, etc), but only the Disney Cruise can have the Disney characters milling around.
 

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I don't understand your point.

If you drive a Tesla, you don't have to "fill up" (charge) at a Tesla supercharger either. Teslas can charge at any outlet, any home, any fast charging (e.g. CCS) port etc.

The only difference is that, in addition to being able to fill up at all those places, it also can fill up 3 times faster at a Tesla supercharger.

The reason being that only Tesla, and Tesla only, have figured out how to charge batteries at 120-145KW without destroying it.

The correct analogy is the iPhone. An iPhone can consume all the content available on the Internet, but on top of that the iPhone and only the iPhone can also consume all the content on the Apple App store.

Another analogy is the Disney Cruise I just took my 10 year old daughter one. It can do everything that every other cruise line can do (food, shows, comedy, pool, etc), but only the Disney Cruise can have the Disney characters milling around.
Perhaps I don't know how things work, but I have never seen a charging station with a shop, where I can go and pay for my charge. As I understand it, I'll have to be a costumer at the company (E.on, Clever etc.), which owns that charging station, and I'll have to have a plastic card (like a credit card) from that specific company to put in a slot on the charger and write my PIN. Am I misinformed? Can you pay with just any credit card at any charging station? Because, as I understand it, when you buy an EV, you'll have to decide which charging company/companies you want to be a costumer at and pay a monthly fee to.
 

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Perhaps I don't know how things work, but I have never seen a charging station with a shop, where I can go and pay for my charge. As I understand it, I'll have to be a costumer at the company (E.on, Clever etc.), which owns that charging station, and I'll have to have a plastic card (like a credit card) from that specific company to put in a slot on the charger and write my PIN. Am I misinformed? Can you pay with just any credit card at any charging station? Because, as I understand it, when you buy an EV, you'll have to decide which charging company/companies you want to be a costumer at and pay a monthly fee to.
Eon, Easypark and your smartphone are all you need to undertake journeys in Denmark.
No cards, just an app on your phone.

I can can get all over the UK with one card and a phone app or perhaps two.

In time charging companies will create a common billing system rather like roaming on your phone.
At present it isn’t necessary because the demand is not high enough.
Electric car owners all leave home with a full charge and armed with an app on their phone do not have any concerns about range.
The only people that are concerned with these issues are people that haven’t experienced long time electric car ownership.
 

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Eon, Easypark and your smartphone are all you need to undertake journeys in Denmark.
No cards, just an app on your phone.

I can can get all over the UK with one card and a phone app or perhaps two.

In time charging companies will create a common billing system rather like roaming on your phone.
At present it isn’t necessary because the demand is not high enough.
Electric car owners all leave home with a full charge and armed with an app on their phone do not have any concerns about range.
The only people that are concerned with these issues are people that haven’t experienced long time electric car ownership.
You can do it, that's true. But if you are a costumer at a certain charging company, it will be cheaper to charge your EV. But then you'll have to pay a monthly fee of around 40 pounds. If you are not a costumer of the charging company, where you end up, then the charging will be quite a lot more expensive. On top of that, different EV's have different connections and must be charged at different voltages. Not all of them are available at all charging stations.

I know, on a daily basis, most people can charge at home, but driving around the country, it's not enough to find a charging station, which can be difficult. It also has to have the right connection for your EV, and the price depends on, whether you are a costumer at that company. To me it sounds quite a lot more complicated than filling up an ICE car. But you are of course right. It is early days. In time some common system will be made. And you are probably also right, that in real life, you'll find a solution without too much trouble.
 

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You can do it, that's true. But if you are a costumer at a certain charging company, it will be cheaper to charge your EV. But then you'll have to pay a monthly fee of around 40 pounds. If you are not a costumer of the charging company, where you end up, then the charging will be quite a lot more expensive. On top of that, different EV's have different connections and must be charged at different voltages. Not all of them are available at all charging stations.

I know, on a daily basis, most people can charge at home, but driving around the country, it's not enough to find a charging station, which can be difficult. It also has to have the right connection for your EV, and the price depends on, whether you are a costumer at that company. To me it sounds quite a lot more complicated than filling up an ICE car. But you are of course right. It is early days. In time some common system will be made. And you are probably also right, that in real life, you'll find a solution without too much trouble.
I suspect that Denmark may not be a big enough market for multiple charging companies to enter at present.

I pay just £7.85 per month and 0.9p Kw with the largest UK operator.

However that is nothing considering I then benefit from free parking at £2 per hour at regularly visited shopping mall.
A friend uses the same parking Point five days a week for 3 hours whilst working in a store. His electricity cost is around .90p daily and gains 3 hours parking valued at £6, so monthly costs are £7.85 standing charge £18 electricity consumption and a saving of £120 for parking :)

I parked this morning at a shopping mall at no cost including free electricity from a different charging company whose app I have on my phone with no monthly standing charge but if I find myself in an area where an electricity charge is applied I simply swipe my iPay when finished to release the cable and my bank account is debited.

My own home power supplier has fast chargers at motorway locations throughout the country. I can use them free of all cost, others pay around £5/charge.

So you can see that the UK is very different to Denmark in terms of power company business models.
To reinforce the point about market size etc I received notification today from the largest company telling me that they have just installed new super chargers across a restaurant chain and if I just scan a special QR code I can have a 10% discount off the cost of meals.
 

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Or you could get a Tesla and use their supercharger or destination charger network. When you do there is no app, no card, nothing to pull out.

If you have an Model S or X (grandfathered in), there is no supercharger cost. For all others you get 400KWh of supercharger credits/year. If you go above that, your charge is simply, automatically and transparently billed to the credit card linked to your Tesla on-line account. You plug, charge and leave. No need to do anything else for payment.

Maybe now you understand the benefit of a a high end proprietary solution. 1 - charges 3 times faster than most other "fast charger" ports. 2 - Offers total convenience.






P.S. A lot of the complexity you see in the 3rd party charging networks is actually country/state/local regulations which are archaic. For instance, in the US, some states force companies to charge "by the minute" instead of by the KWh.
 

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Or you could get a Tesla and use their supercharger or destination charger network. When you do there is no app, no card, nothing to pull out.

If you have an Model S or X (grandfathered in), there is no supercharger cost. For all others you get 400KWh of supercharger credits/year. If you go above that, your charge is simply, automatically and transparently billed to the credit card linked to your Tesla on-line account. You plug, charge and leave. No need to do anything else for payment.

Maybe now you understand the benefit of a a high end proprietary solution. 1 - charges 3 times faster than most other "fast charger" ports. 2 - Offers total convenience.






P.S. A lot of the complexity you see in the 3rd party charging networks is actually country/state/local regulations which are archaic. For instance, in the US, some states force companies to charge "by the minute" instead of by the KWh.
But then I would lose all that free mall parking. Given up for a coffee break on the side of a motorway :)
 

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But then I would lose all that free mall parking. Given up for a coffee break on the side of a motorway :)
Sorry, that wasn't directed at you Peter. The "you" in my comment is towards a generic person looking to buy an EV.

And yes, you are correct that electricity providers, corporations and governments are showering EV owners with incentives. In my town if you have an EV, and only if you have an EV, you can park right next to the train station (commuter train to New York) plug-in for a flat $5 charge. Other have to park as much as 1/4 mile away and pay $10 to park.
 

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The reason for my concerns earlier expressed is, that I have been toying with the idea of owning an EV. It's all good and fine using the supercharger network and all, but it takes time during your journey. If I visit my parents 300 kms away for the weekend, I'll be able to get there with a long range EV like a Tesla. Realistically that is. It doesn't go 500 km on a charge in real life. Probably not even 400, if I'm using the heater or the air conditioning. Or if I'm driving the permitted 130 km/h on the motorway.

To illustrate that, Renault has a homepage, where you can see the real range of the Renault Zoe. A car with a 400 km range according to the standard test. You can choose outside temperature, use of heater or A/C, wheel size and speed. No matter what I do, I can't get it over 388 km. That's with a speed of 50 km/h (around 30 mph). Good luck with that on the motorway! If I go to 100 km/h, the range drops to 231 km. And at the permitted motorway speed of 130 km/h it's only 163. And that's at 20 degrees outside temperature and no heating nor A/C. If we set the temperature at more realistic 10 degrees and turn the heater on, the range is 157 km. My point is, that a Tesla must also be sensitive to speed, temperature and all, so the realistic range is far from the promised 500 km. So after driving the 300 km to my parents', the battery must be rather close to empty.

Anyway, my point is, it would be nice to be able to charge the EV during the weekend, while I visit my parents. They live in a flat, so they don't have a garage, where I can charge the EV. Of the two large companies, that have charging stations in Denmark, only one has charging facilities near my parents'. They are only 200 metres away, which is great. They are 11 W chargers with a Type 2 connection. I don't know, what that is, but other charging stations have CHAdeMO and/or CCS connections. If my EV can't use that charger, there are no chargers within walking distance. So I would have to either take time away from my visit to go somewhere to charge the EV, or I would have to take time away from our home journey and use a supercharger near the motorway. I could of course also have done that on the way over, so the battery wouldn't be completely flat. That is probably the best solution, so I could use the EV for errands in the weekend and be able to drive to a supercharger on the motorway on our way back home. The trouble here would be my wife asking, why that EV is such a good idea, if we have to stop all the time for half hour recharges. Not that my wife is understanding. I'm just giving her the role of the little boy in The Emperor's New Clothes.

What bothers me here is not so much the time for charging and the need for frequent charging. I understand that. The problem is, that not only are there not yet many chargers around, but I can only use some of them. Others belong to another company, where I'm not a costumer. E.ON has a service, where non costumers have to call them on their phone to make them open the chargers. The price is then rather high. And this is at the same time I pay 40 pounds every month to be a costumer at another company. And even worse, some chargers don't even have the connection or the voltage, that fits my EV. Imagine driving around in your ICE car and discovering, that you can't use like 40% of the petrol stations, because the fuel nozzle on the pump doesn't fit your car. And then half the stations charge you twice the price, unless you want to be a costumer at 40 pounds a month.

I know, you can paint a rosy story, like Pekem does, if you are lucky to live and drive, where there are the right kind of charging stations. In Denmark some companies even have free charging if you pay a higher monthly fee. If you can take advantage of that, it can be really cheap to drive an EV. But I also envision scenarios, where it can be quite difficult to drive an EV. At least you need to plan ahead. But once you have learned about the charging stations at a given place, you'll know what to do, every time you return. And you often go the same few places most of the time. So perhaps, like Pekem says, when you are living with an EV and have to deal with the obstacles, it isn't nearly as bad, as many people fear.
 

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I don't want to paint a rosy picture. Clearly, presently, owning an EV is less convenient for some people than owning an ICE vehicle.

You just have to be realistic about it. But bear in mind that these are very early days. 2 years ago Tesla had zero superchargers in Europe. Now there are thousands. Next year there will be thousands more.

Looking at the static picture today to determine if you should buy an EV is not very useful. Just look at the progress made in the past 2 years, and project it forward.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
In the meantime Muenster you can use these:



http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/mobile-charging-cable-options/

Mobile Charging Cable OptionsNov 12, 2016 | Tesla Driver

BackgroundIn the UK, mainland Europe and the USA, Tesla supplies the model S with a “Universal Mobile Connector” (UMC). This plugs into the car at one end, has a lump in the middle with some electronic smarts inside, and can accept a variety of different clip-on adaptors at the other end in order to allow it to connect to all manner of different electrical outlets ranging from 1 to 11kW.
 

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Comical Ali (Nick Gibbs) on no-show (quelle surprise) of production I-Pace at Frankfurt:

'Jaguar debated launching the I-Pace at Frankfurt but decided against it for one big reason – high demand for the car even before its launch.'

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20170909/BLOG15/170909811/1172

Does Nick read his master's own press releases? Particularly the one a few weeks ago where JLR UK CEO Jeremy Hicks said the I-Pace has 500 pre-orders, after nearly a year of being available to be ordered?

Now Nick says:

'Jaguar says it has over 25,000 confirmed orders for the I-Pace'

So from 500 pre-orders just a few weeks ago, as stated by the CEO of JLR himself, to 25,000 confirmed orders, according to a hack associated most with Haymarket, the company paid by JLR to do Jaguar's PR, who sources 'Jaguar'. Hmm.

There's nothing like advertising your desperation by continually shouting how successful you are; as Shakespeare said - I think you doth protest too much.

Nick, Haymarket and JLR are sh!t-scared of what the Germans will show next week, by way of EVs, rendering the I-Pace obsolete before it even reaches market.

JLR/Haymarket are trying to do what what arch PR/establishment outfit Tesla does - see the aping of the suddenly huge pre-orders thing.

But even that they F-up, with lame hacks like Gibbs sent out to do the dirty work, with 'Jaguar says', rather than Speth or even Hallet(JLR PR boss) putting their names to it, which to be fair, Musk does, with his Twitter thing.

Perhaps Speth knows down the line, in a few years, in a MG-Rover Phoenix Four environment, he doesn't want any dirt leading directly back to him, plausible deniability - "I did not know this freelancer 'Nick'" - else he end up in front of m'lud.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Jaguar says it has over 25,000 confirmed orders for the I-Pace, with customers in big markets in Europe and the U.S. placing "four-figure" deposits, despite the not knowing the exact final price. That order book is almost two year's worth of production at Magna Steyr's contract manufacturing plant in Graz, Austria, where the I-Pace will be built based on capacity predictions from IHS Markit.
If that is true then surely Jaguar should immediately ready Castle Bromwich for EVs.
I can’t recall what the pre-launch sales numbers were said to be of the XE or F-Pace but it surely wasn’t as high as the I-Pace.
It is astonishing that a car (EV) which we are told the public are not willing to commit to because of lack of infrastructure and range anxiety, even with a 300 mile range, has attracted so many advanced orders.

Quite an amazing achievement. Consider:

The last four years have seen a remarkable surge in demand for electric vehicles in the UK – new registrations of plug-in cars increased from 3,500 in 2013 to more than 107,000 by the end of July 2017.
So in four years the UK plugin fleet increased from 3500 to over 107,000 in four years.
Jaguar have a success on their hands which demands, that if Magna will need two years to fulfill the present I-Pace order book, that, as Dr Speth hinted the other day that a UK Jaguar factory may produce EVs, production be ramped up immediately.
 
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