XF Forum banner
3381 - 3400 of 3475 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
I can still imagine that BMW could partner with JLR.
For what? BMW directors and the whole industry know JLR is out of the game.

BMW's problem is asking people to pay 4 times for a Rolls-Royce EV SUV, and twice for a large BMW EV SUV, what Rivian will charge for an R1S, or no doubt countless Chinese super-luxury EV SUVs.

Without a V12 engine, why pay 2-4 times more for maybe a tenth of a decibel less noise? Is the badge that important?

As I said, the Rivian SUV is the 1970 Range Rover of our day. It's too big for Europe, but it'll absolutely kill JLR - Full-fat/RRSport/Defender - dead in the US and Canada.

The iX is the start of doing that to the same in Europe, with the EQS SUV, EQE SUV etc on the way.

I'm sorry, but JLR as a whole thing is over.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,341 Posts
BMW's decent PHEVs, i3, and new 'i' cars, i4 and iX, makes it the best-selling make in Belgium in 2021:


Why on earth would BMW partner with, give away their obviously very good EV tech, to a rapidly disappearing without trace, deadweight JLR?

Giving JLR/Tata an obsolete 14 year old engine, the V8, is one thing, and probably a nice earner on the side, but not your core tech for the current and future, which you'll need every bit of to stave off the threat of yourself going out of existence, due to the Chinese and Korean EV makers, and VAG and Daimler/Geely on your doorstep.
I can see, that the sale of Cupra cars have gone up 32,450 % in 2021 compared to 2020. I didn't know, percentages went that high. That's amazing ;-) A few hundreds I have seen, but thirty-two thousands!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
top of the pops - just hang on until 2025:

Font Rectangle Material property Parallel Screenshot


Jaguar outsold 2:1 by one Polestar.

('Re')Imagine if JLR had been a real car company, 2008-2021. Tata's/JLR's Jaguar would be where Geely's/Volvo's Polestar is now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
Disastrous figure for the UK in December, even officially - down almost a fifth on last year:

Font Screenshot Parallel Number Rectangle


The killer, for JLR though, is BEVs are clearly destroying PHEVs, as I've said they would and are, over 3 times the amount in December.

This is so stark now, that the alarm bells must be going off in Whitehall, although they're all at home, 'working'.

JLR can't wait 2-3 years for the BEV Full-fat. Tesla, Hyundai-Kia, VAG, everyone, is swallowing JLR alive right now. A literal few are shelling out £70-150k on Defenders and the new Full-fat. That's cottage industry level. Tesla is planning up to 500k/yr production at each of its plants, VAG similar, by comparison.

JLR has to downsize massively NOW, or find a buyer NOW. UK new car sales have plainly collapsed, with Chips and Covid wheeled out as cover. The only thing selling is EV. JLR is geared up for the mid-2010s, churning out up to 1 million/yr diesels and latterly PHEVs. Its real demand now is around one-tenth of that, for the new Range Rover and Defender, and that is disappearing fast. It only needs one plant, either Solihull or Nitra.

Even arctic weather the world over won't save JLR, as the likes of the Rivian is more capable off road than a V8 500hp Range Rover/Defender. A £100k V8 Defender will be seen as the end of the line of/for JLR, like Detroit full-size cars in the early 1970s.

The collapse of JLR is amazing - unreported, silent, no one seemingly caring - all fixated on The Deadly Cold.

We'll care when Tata needs £billions from UK taxpayers to stop the Midlands going totally Mad Max.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
These figures are far worse than the 2008-9 Crash, more like the total slump of the early 1980s:

DECEMBER% Change
MARQUE2021 % Market share2020% Market share
Abarth1050.101620.12-35.19
Alfa Romeo1240.112850.21-56.49
Alpine130.0170.0185.71
Audi7,6477.047,4355.602.85
Bentley1160.111440.11-19.44
BMW6,4205.9110,3057.77-37.70
Citroen1,4361.321,7171.29-16.37
Cupra5640.521070.08427.10
Dacia1,7421.603630.27379.89
DS2790.262430.1814.81
Fiat1,4271.319020.6858.20
Ford4,9734.5811,4798.65-56.68
Genesis110.0100.000.00
Honda1,5881.461,3911.0514.16
Hyundai4,7404.363,3662.5440.82
Jaguar1,3331.233,3862.55-60.63
Jeep1950.185340.40-63.48
Kia2,9032.673,5892.70-19.11
Land Rover2,6692.464,5483.43-41.31
Lexus7010.657490.56-6.41
Maserati690.06590.0416.95
Mazda1,1741.081,2750.96-7.92
Mercedes-Benz5,5085.077,4805.64-26.36
MG1,1261.041,4211.07-20.76
MINI5,9245.464,1013.0944.45
Mitsubishi00.005310.400.00
Nissan6,3655.867,1245.37-10.65
Peugeot4,5444.185,3864.06-15.63
Polestar4330.402420.1878.93
Porsche2,2212.052,1801.641.88
Renault2,0191.861,7991.3612.23
SEAT1,0320.954,1763.15-75.29
Skoda3,6653.374,8813.68-24.91
smart1380.13890.0755.06
Ssangyong930.09650.0543.08
Subaru1760.161280.1037.50
Suzuki8420.781,2790.96-34.17
Toyota6,0785.605,7114.306.43
Vauxhall6,0975.617,2835.49-16.28
Volkswagen8,8548.1515,63511.78-43.37
Volvo3,4433.174,5413.42-24.18
Other British1290.121840.14-29.89
Other Imports9,6808.916,4004.8251.25
Total108,596100132,682100-18.15
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
Jaguar, Australia, December

Jaguar E-Pace – 15 (Dec), 548 YTD
Jaguar F-Pace – 2 (Dec), 401 YTD
Jaguar F-Type – 1 (Dec), 44 YTD
Jaguar I-Pace – 0 (Dec), 44 YTD
Jaguar XE – 3 (Dec), 144 (YTD)
Jaguar XF – 1 (Dec), 40 YTD
Jaguar XJ – 0 (Dec), 1 YTD
Jaguar Total – 22 (Dec), 1222 YTD


- soon to be outsold by Morgan? Bugatti?

JLR went off a cliff in 2021, the second half especially. Bollore cut most of the fraudulent sales of the previous regime, and then JLR collapsed anyway. Even in EV-phobic Australia JLR is irrelevant, with the saviour Defender disappeared without trace, after the initial boom, hype, of the first full year of sale:

SUV Large > $70kMercedes–Benz GLE (353)BMW X5 (267)Lexus RX (167)
SUV Upper Large < $100kToyota LandCruiser Wagon (821)Nissan Patrol Wagon (18)
SUV Upper Large > $100kMercedes-Benz GLS (111)BMW X7 (76)Audi Q8 (16), Land Rover Discovery (16)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
For what? BMW directors and the whole industry know JLR is out of the game.

I'm sorry, but JLR as a whole thing is over.
For me, BMW is the only player that makes sense for JLR. I fail to see any other way forward.

It would be really interesting to know how things are going on with that...

BMW Group and Jaguar Land Rover announce collaboration for next-generation electrification technology

As I wrote before, it should mean something that BMW made such a press release in 2019. And it was quite clear

Starting next year, the BMW Group will introduce this electric drive unit, the fifth generation (“Gen 5”) of its eDrive technology, with the BMW iX3 Sports Activity Vehicle. The Gen 5 electric drive unit will be the propulsion system upon which subsequent evolutions launched together with Jaguar Land Rover will be based.

The iX3 arrived as they said, using this Gen 5 drive unit. And they announced that evolutions of that drive unit will be used by JLR. Added to that

A joint team of BMW Group and Jaguar Land Rover experts located in Munich will be tasked with further developing the Gen 5 power units with production of the electric drivetrains to be undertaken by each partner in their own manufacturing facilities. Both companies will seek to adhere to their own brand-specific propositions in any project.

That sounded very clear and concrete, basically BMW announced that they give JLR access to their EV technology.

This press release is now 31 months old.

Afterwards, complete silence.

Have they abandoned that? Nothing is public, so I doubt it. So I guess that this is still what they have in mind. And if this is the case, BMW must have a good reason to do so.

I want to stay positive for JLR, so I still hope that such things are going on behind closed doors. They really need some good news soon...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
For me, BMW is the only player that makes sense for JLR. I fail to see any other way forward.

I want to stay positive for JLR, so I still hope that such things are going on behind closed doors. They really need some good news soon.
I think what happened re. BMW and JLR was that most of what was 'agreed', drawn up as 'contracts', between Speth and ex-CEO Krueger was conveniently binned, forgotten about, once the new man came in, Zipse.

The new Range Rover programme was kicked off in 2015, so the BMW V8 for it was probably too far gone, and profitable to BMW to switch off anyway.

Zipse has his hands full with BMW's late EV push, never mind the complication of working with a dysfunctional JLR, with some of the older hands at BMW still scarred from their experience of working with Rover Group(Land Rover).

The reason there's no news since 31 months, is that there is no news - it's dead, a non-thing.

BMW is not coming to rescue JLR.

Tata and Bollore must know they can't wait for 2024/5, and JLR's EV offensive. So what are they doing? The obvious thing is to sell it, or massively reduce costs, to match real demand. But why would the Chinese or anyone buy it? China can make a large super-premium SUV EV for around $70k, certainly less than $100k.

BMW's prime concern is how aggressive does China want to be, same with Daimler. VAG is too large and too political to take on at the moment. I doubt JLR is even on BMW's radar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
I am so free to make a speculation. Last year, this Autocar article said

With the high cost of developing a new vehicle architecture, it had been expected that JLR would look for a partner, either to buy a platform from or to share the development costs with.

Bolloré confirmed that plan during an investor presentation, stating that JLR is in talks with "a selection of actors" with a "massive appetite" to work with the firm.


Now, at least that made some sense. Very fishy was the

Bolloré did say that, if a suitable platform supplier can't be found, the firm is prepared to develop the new platform itself.

The clock was ticking last year, now it ticks even louder. They can hardly look for a platform much longer, they need it. My speculation for a solution is the nameless BMW iX platform. The iX has a unique EV platform, used for just this single model. The coming i5 and i7 are not using it. And in 2025 BMW has new EV platform, the Neue Klasse (NK). Those NK models will use a Gen 6 drive unit.

So BMW has a new luxury EV platform, that they will only use once. Jaguar needs a high segment platform, with their "lower volume, more expensive" target.

In theory that fits together. But that BMW was open to work with JLR could have really changed... it is very silent in this regard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
The clock was ticking last year, now it ticks even louder. They can hardly look for a platform much longer, they need it. My speculation for a solution is the nameless BMW iX platform. The iX has a unique EV platform, used for just this single model. The coming i5 and i7 are not using it. And in 2025 BMW has new EV platform, the Neue Klasse (NK). Those NK models will use a Gen 6 drive unit.

So BMW has a new luxury EV platform, that they will only use once. Jaguar needs a high segment platform, with their "lower volume, more expensive" target.

In theory that fits together. But that BMW was open to work with JLR could have really changed... it is very silent in this regard.
As I said, I think most of the BMW-JLR 'partnership', working together on EV, engines etc thing, was unceremoniously tipped in the rubbish bin when Zipse took over, and ex-BMW Speth was plainly on the way out at JLR.

'Jaguar' is plainly never coming back. EV changed all that. Lucid, Rivian, Nio etc have no provenance, Tesla of course too, which is not a handicap, rather the opposite., in the EV, startup realm. Jaguar is steeped in ancient cars, and engines.

The Germans have the same problem, hence the none too subtle rebranding, distancing from the obviously ICE-associated mother brands - 'ID', 'EQ' and 'i'

It's possible, given the case of Polestar, but needs years (ago) planning, and serious investment - Volvo/Geely. But Polestar was hardly known, unlike Jaguar of course.

Tata and JLR's problem is that they thought JLR had bulletproof brands, and some of the richest in the world. Rivian, Lucid and co. proved otherwise. JLR, 'Range Rover' especially, went from tens of £billions of notional brand value to basically zero overnight, from 2018/19 to 2021, a blink of an eye in industry planning terms. The Rivian R1T/S did to Range Rover what the first iPhone did to Nokia.

I think they're in shellshock, in paralysis. Bombay and Gaydon went from thinking they were sat on a golden goose, the envy of the world, to nobodies, with not a soul speaking about them.

Even if BMW gave JLR the iX, what help would it be? A Range Rover version for £50k more? EV buyers would sus that from a mile away. EV is not the same as ICE. Buyers of Skoda Enyaqs know the Audi Q4 is not worth the £10k extra.

The iX is a great sales hit, because BMW has done value-adding work - the motors are plainly excellent, as is the overall integration. People will pay for that. EV has changed the rules. You have to do something, bring something to the party, or you'll go extinct - as JLR is doing. Buying in a platform is saying you're out of the game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Even if BMW gave JLR the iX, what help would it be? A Range Rover version for £50k more?
Tire Wheel Motor vehicle Automotive tire Vehicle


I just think about Jaguar, as they are the ones without any concrete new platform plans (as far as we know). The last Bollore quotes only relate to Jaguar.

With the pictured iX platform, Jaguar could do what they are good at. If they want to move into a higher market segment, they need the right technology. The iX is a technological showcase for BMW, what they have developed for it would fit to upper level Jaguar EVs. As the iX seems to be similar to the Porsche Taycan - developed on a high level for a lot of money, but a one off platform - I can at least imagine that.

Buying in a platform is saying you're out of the game.
True, and that is one of the aspects I fail to understand with Bollore. His "if a suitable platform supplier can't be found, the firm is prepared to develop the new platform itself" makes no sense at all. If they were able to develop that new platform, they should have already done that. Like all the others.

It seems that Tesla will get company here. Vinfast, a quite new and hardly known manufacturer from Vietnam wants to set up a car manufacturing in Germany. They are evaluating if they build a new plant or take over the Opel Eisenach one. They were able to produce competitive ICE cars in Vietnam after a very short time, as they licensed two BMW platforms. They have a lot of German content - all leading suppliers are on board - their EV offerings could be a positive surprise.

If there are no real Jaguar news this year, it is likely that you are right...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
I just think about Jaguar
- you mean unlike JLR(and Tata). Let's be honest. Reimagine was simply about burying Jaguar without saying it.

Tata and Bollore had clearly decided that Jaguar was dead, after the huge flops of XE and XFII - 'New Gen' - and then the I-Pace. The E- and F-Pace simply took (some) sales from Land Rover. Reimagine was a clever-clever way to avoid Tata having to state that they had euthanized UK's favourite brand, Spitfire factory, E-type, etc - imagine the uproar, protests.

You can't turn a brand off for 3-4 years, especially in the EV era, where an EV year is ~ 5 times an ICE one, given the pace of improvement.

Bollore and Tata knew that Speth's, and Ratan Tata's, whole resurrection of Jaguar, especially to a mass, full-line producer, was a huge mistake and folly. Reimagine was about banishing the embarrassment of Jaguar, and making JLR 'Range Rover' - 'New Defender' is just a Range Rover with at most minus 5 to 10% pricing. 'Discovery', the brand/sub-brand, was quietly binned too.

This would explain why the platform for EV Jaguar was so vague - it didn't matter; it wasn't happening; so Bollore could say it might be inhouse, it might be bought out, etc.

Bollore and Tata thought they had saved JLR after the disaster of the huge drop in diesel sales, and the complete failure of New Gen Jag and the I-Pace, by betting everything on 5 metre, £100k or more on average mild and PHEV hybrid SUVs.

And then the EV dam broke. And the rest is history.

The clever-clever game of Reimagine seems 100 years ago, and may as well be.

As I said, I think the Tata people in Bombay and Bollore are stunned. They can't believe what has happened in the last 12-18 months. There's no news, no statements, because they are in shock.

There's no way out. No one's going o buy JLR, and UK.gov will not allow JLR/Tata to shut 2/3 UK plants, and axe 75% or more of the headcount.

Tata knows anyway that Johnson and his cabal are just caretakers, waiting for the next puppet off the rank - Starmer - before Whitehall can make a move on shovelling, openly, £billions of UK taxpayer money to Tata to keep JLR open/going.

It's a sh!tshow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
BMW again performs magic - 'This is a competent car', 'feels carved of one whole piece' (from 15:55):


An XE EV with this platform/powertrain would have saved Jaguar - see the success of the Model 3 and Polestar 2, and now i4.

Speth bet the farm on diesel over 10 years ago, and then a lash up, the I-Pace, to satisfy Tata's need to sell JLR. JLR then ploughed everything it had into hybrids, mild and plug-in. Now it hasn't got the bandwidth to do an i4/XE EV, iX/RRSport EV while messing about with long-range electric power PHEVs, which are a deadend.

BMW can survive in the EV space if they continue to work this magic, their famed engineering skills, selling to enthusiasts over half the price cars ostensibly offering the same specs sold by the Chinese.

Also, forget the Thai guy in Norway, as thee influencer in all things EV - 'I will never do sponsorship, I don't need it'.

His schtick is painfully obvious - 'make me rich, suckers'.

Kyle Conner, the guy above, is far more a true enthusiast, and dispassionate general car, EV assessor. I think his dad owned a BMW dealership, hence his love of BMW, but he's not one-eyed.

He's given the iX and now the i4 a huge thumbs up, with the caveat of the IX's frontal ugliness.

BMW may just have a chance, to survive the firestorm of Chinese EVs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
As I said, I think most of the BMW-JLR 'partnership', working together on EV, engines etc thing, was unceremoniously tipped in the rubbish bin when Zipse took over...
When BMW launched a battery research centre at their Munich base in November 2019, the following was said there:

“We are not only working on electric drive trains and internal combustion engines with JLR, but other components.”

That came from the new BMW boss Oliver Zipse. There were no comments if BMW could take a stake in JLR, as no decision was yet made.

I guess that BMW would have said if they abandoned that. So I think that you are absolutely right with

"As I said, I think the Tata people in Bombay and Bollore are stunned. They can't believe what has happened in the last 12-18 months. There's no news, no statements, because they are in shock."

It seems that Zipse is not the one to end anything, so BMW will still be "there". They have a strong R&D and record sales, something JLR is missing. The BMW profit for last year will be above 15 billion Euro.

Should Tata have no idea what to do, they should better let BMW at the (at least Jaguar) steering wheel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
Should Tata have no idea what to do, they should better let BMW at the (at least Jaguar) steering wheel.
In Tata's dreams...

EV's changed everything. Jaguar's $100k+ F-type R, or whatever it's called, would be dusted by a $70k BMW i4 M50. A $120k RRSport SVR would be left for dead by a $70k Rivian.

Tata is stuck with JLR. They can't sell it, they can't IPO it, and they can't afford to pay for its move to EV, nor have the time or the engineering talent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Tata is stuck with JLR.
It seems that BMW was interested in 2019. Zipse said about a possible partnership “We have made no decision on it – I cannot comment on something that is not decided.”

What has happend since then is unkown. Nothing more became public, that most likely means that the decision was a negative one. Or they are still talking, to give it some positive spin ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
It seems that BMW was interested in 2019. Zipse said about a possible partnership “We have made no decision on it – I cannot comment on something that is not decided.”

What has happend since then is unkown. Nothing more became public, that most likely means that the decision was a negative one. Or they are still talking, to give it some positive spin ;)
What happened was Mr Zipse saw JLR cancel their own flagship EV project, the eXJ, produce what was clearly a half-baked, possibly fraudulent EV, the I-Pace, and then get rid of the CEO who was behind the BMW-JLR tie-up, Speth.

Bollore's only job was to IPO JLR, in 2021, so would have had no interest in this(the tie-up).

BMW has worked its socks off since 2019, and being regarded as way off the EV pace, compared to VAG, and obviously Tesla. JLR has done nothing by comparison, except produce an even greater number of interchangeable, 5 metre, ~£100k ICE SUVs.

Now BMW is making Tesla look like the legacy maker, with two very competent products, i4 and iX. Read the comments. The Tesla fanboys are not happy. How dare BMW produce a better product. If Jaguar had the i4, and Land Rover the iX, JLR would have been saved.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
If Jaguar had the i4, and Land Rover the iX, JLR would have been saved.
As a white knight, BMW would be perfect. They already have a very good EV technology, deep enough pockets, and a strong connection to the UK. And a design direction, that would leave a lot of space for elegant Jaguar models.

Under Tata, the road leads to nowhere. As you wrote, they are short of money, time and engineering talent, and time is now running much faster.

That BMW sales were in front of Mercedes last year was already known. Both had a high demand and were affected by the semiconductur shortage. Mercedes even more, with sales of minus 5 percent for 2021.The G-class was at an all time high (41,174 sales), the S-class had a plus of 40 percent, and AMG and Maybach reached new records. Mercedes surely preferred to build the higher priced models with the semiconductors they had. EQS demand is strong.

With a high demand for the i4 and iX, the iX1 and i7 on the market this year and the i5 and MINI Countryman EV next, the BMW EV sales will rise strongly. The easy times for Tesla are over.

Rolls-Royce had a record year, the Spectre will be on a unique level next year. Very interesting times indeed, just a shame that Jaguar is not a part of those.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,402 Posts
...Rolls-Royce had a record year, the Spectre will be on a unique level next year. Very interesting times indeed, just a shame that Jaguar is not a part of those.
interesting or mad?:


McLaren road cars is dead, killed by Plaid and Porsche GT cars. Makes as much sense as if BMW was to buy JLR. Either Formula 1 is insanely popular in China and SE Asia, or the Germans have lost the plot.

Also, it looks like the plug has been pulled on the stock market and asset price boom by the central banks - less/no printing, and interest rate rises. If so, high-end cars will crash, and there'll be a massive shakeout of the auto industry - Geely possibly to save Daimler; BMW acquired by some unknown Chinese maker?
 
3381 - 3400 of 3475 Posts
Top