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Discussion Starter #1
Different car/ market I know but given the present plight of diesel cars, which in the U.K. the F-Pace is , and the high level of interest in Hybrids I wonder if the Outlander will steal a march on Jaguar.
Diesel is bad news and the I-Pace will be expensive.

Best selling PHEV in Europe must be worth a few diesel F-Paces ?

Mitsubishi delivers 635 Outlander PHEVs to Ukranian police

Posted June 8, 2017 by Charles Morris




Mitsubishi has delivered 635 Outlander PHEV vehicles to the National Police of Ukraine, an order resulting from an emissions trading agreement called the Green Investment Scheme.

This is the second time MMC has supplied vehicles under the Green Investment Scheme – in 2011, it delivered 507 i‐MiEVs to the government of Estonia.




Since its launch in 2013, the Outlander PHEV has recorded cumulative sales of 80,768 units (as of the end of 2016), and has been the best-selling PHEV in Europe for four years in a row.

At the delivery ceremony, MMC President Osamu Masuko said, “I would like to thank the Ukrainian government for evaluating our Outlander PHEV highly and deciding that it is the right option for the country’s police force.

The Outlander PHEV is not only environmentally friendly but also contains our latest technologies such as our advanced 4-wheel-drive system Super All-Wheel Control, which makes it highly suitable for police use.”
 

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It is not too late if the I-Pace is done right and proves to be a worthy vehicle. The issue is that Jaguar is doing the I-Pace in a rushed, desperate mode. The chances of them producing a competitive product in this fashion is nil.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well it might be that the Outlander will be seen off by:

....................... Jaguar E-Pace !



Jaguar confirmed that the E-Pace will become the brand's second SUV/crossover next year.

A third crossover, the battery-powered I-Pace, will join Jaguar's lineup after the E-Pace, also next year.
The E-Pace will ride on the platform that underpins the XE sedan.

"The combination of sports car looks with Jaguar performance will ensure that the E-Pace stands out," Ian Callum, Jaguar director of design, said in a statement.

Technical details are few, but Jaguar says the E-Pace will be available with the company's Ingenium gasoline and diesel engines.

The E-Pace will come standard with all-wheel drive.


Jaguar will officially introduce the E-Pace in London on July 13.

A teaser image of the E-Pace released by Jaguar.


"Every Jaguar is designed to excite the senses, and we think E-Pace will do just that, albeit with its own character," Callum said.



Porsche created the successful template for high-performance crossover vehicles with the Cayenne and Macan.


The F-Pace crossover, launched last year, has been one of the hottest-selling vehicles in Jaguar's history.
 

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Well it might be that the Outlander will be seen off by:

....................... Jaguar E-Pace !
Notice the photoshopped panel gap? As they used to say about the original Range Rover - the only things that can be seen from space are the Great Wall of China and R/Rover panel gaps.

So we've got fake panel gaps, what else? This:

'Jaguar confirmed that the E-Pace will become the brand's second SUV/crossover next year. The E-Pace will ride on the platform that underpins the XE sedan.'

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20170620/COPY/306209934/jaguar-e-pace-crossover-coming-in-2018

- a blatant lie, of course. They, JLR and its media lackeys, know that if word gets out that the E-Pace is just a re-frock of the Evoque, itself a refrock of the 2006 Freelander, and of course built on a FWD obsolete £15k Mondeo platform, the bell of BL-Vanden Plas will ring in the head of older Brits, and the airhead yummie mummies, who don't know their FWD arse from their RWD elbow, will continue to buy their £50k Evoques anyway - until the BMW X2 appears, next month.

#IPODesperation #VandenPlas.

PS why would they not build the 'E-Voque' in Halewood, with sources close to Magna Steyr saying they have the contract?

If true, it's because:

a)Halewood is a blackhole for product quality, producing simple vehicles all based on a bog standard more than decade-old Ford platform. Speth's team are deliberately snubbing the JLR UK workforce.

b) escape from Brexit's complications, putting production into Europe, with Magna Steyr in Austria.
 

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Well it might be that the Outlander will be seen off by:

....................... Jaguar E-Pace !
I just read on the Facebook page of Jaguar Magazine, that the E-Pace will debut next month. I was just going to post it, but you beat me to it. It's great, that Jaguar releases new models. Perhaps they are moving forward and not standing still, as we started to fear. Compared to the competition, Jaguar has a very small model range, so it doesn't harm having a few more to choose from. I hope the shape of the rear lights show, that the design will be more "edgy" like the F-Pace and the C-X75 and not rounded like the current Jaguars. Not that the current Jaguars look bad, but times are moving on. I really love the C-X75 and think it's such i pity, they never put it into production. The I-Pace continues that design language and also looks really great.
 

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Tad- dah, the new E-voque!



'E-voque', not (X)E-Pace, as Richard Truett of Autonews Europe would like the plebs to swallow, attempting to justify £50k for a 2006 Freelander, confirmed by Auto Motor und Sport, or just by looking at the front wheel position - FWD

'Der neue Jaguar E-Pace basiert auf der schon etwas älteren D8-Plattform von Land Rover, auf der unter anderem der neue Discovery Sport, aber auch der Range Rover Evoque aufbauen'

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/jaguar-e-pace-2018-bilder-preise-marktstart-suv-3702992.html
 

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Mitsubishi sells more than 1m vehicles annually. It doesn't matter how many PHEV it sells, they lose money in every one. In fact, until Nissan took control Mitsubishi lost money on every vehicle it sold.

There is no market for the iPace so it matters not how successful it may be. Jaguar will lose money on every iPace it is forced to make. Zero would be an ideal sales target.
 

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I love it.....that is exactly how Nokia and RIM reacted to the iPhone.


Here is what Germany's Berenberg Bank recently wrote in a report to investors...


“(Legacy Manufacturer) complacency about electric vehicle (EV) technology is worse than perceived. Despite more talk of developing EVs for mass-market adoption, a lack of real action and strategic commitments betray their underlying conviction, with no clear pathway to high-volume EV production before the mid-2020s. Tesla will be given a near-monopolistic opportunity to gain market share and outcompete the incumbent automotive industry,”
 

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And my read is that the legacy manufacturers are happy to leave the EV market vacant for tesla to exploit.
 

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I love it.....that is exactly how Nokia and RIM reacted to the iPhone.

Here is what Germany's Berenberg Bank recently wrote in a report to investors...
They're not complacent, they just don't see any profit in EVs now or in the near future.

Germans are often seen as techno freaks, but actually they are money people first, and they hate to send good money after bad, like money to Greece.

Their head tells them, whatever the clarion calls from the media and bankers' notes, that there is no money in electric, at least in the mass market.

They are being forced to make an offering due to the collapse of diesel and the green anti-fossil fuel bandwagon, so with their hard-headed pragmatism, not wide-eyed techno lust, they are getting their chemical mates to grab hold of the fundamentals of these milkfloats, and get the costs into control.

Tesla will fall over with the Model 3. It's not just that there is fundamentally no money in a $35k EV, it's that they can't do mass production. It's this that is actually killing them, as quality and costs go out of control at Fremont.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
And my read is that the legacy manufacturers are happy to leave the EV market vacant for tesla to exploit.
It seems that a lot of crazy people are preparing to spend shareholder money supporting Tesla if they are the only EVs in this “vacant market “

Just think, all major buildings providing a charging facility for Tesla owners :)


Siemens latest German giant to rally behind ChargePoint as EU looks to mandate EV charging in larger buildings29 June 2017
Europe’s largest manufacturing giant Siemens has followed Daimler and BMW i Ventures in investing in US company ChargePoint. It comes as the world’s largest charging network provider plans its expansion into Europe as demand for plug-in electric vehicles (EVs) continues to rise.


The investment is part of ChargePoint’s $125 million (€110 million) drive to enter the European market and comes as the Frankfurter Allgemeine reports that EU member state energy ministers have agreed a proposal from the European Commission that from 2025 onwards, all major buildings in Europe must be equipped with EV charging stations.


The ruling will apply to all new or ‘comprehensively’ renovated buildings that have at least 10 parking spaces, with office and non-residential buildings required to have at least one charging point – as well as cables laid so that in the future it will be possible to equip each third parking space with a charging point.


Small companies are allowed to be excluded but rules are stricter in residential buildings, with the need to create a charging point for every parking space.

The EU believes the costs will be manageable, forecast to amount to €2,500 for the establishment of a charging station by the time the proposal takes effect, accounting for 1-2% of the total cost of renovating buildings.

The charging point plan is part of the EU’s energy efficiency plans, which aims for the EU to emit 40% less CO2 by 2030, with energy savings of 30%.


With such enormous growth thus forecast for the EV charging point market in the coming years, it is clear to see why Siemens wants to get in on the action. In March, ChargePoint announced it had raised $82 million (€72 million), including investment by Mercedes-owner Daimler, which saw Daimler’s Axel Harries join ChargePoint’s board.

This latest $42 million (€37 million) investment takes the total European expansion investment to $125 million (€109 million) and will see the CEO of Siemen’s Energy Management Division Ralf Christian also join the board. The privately held company has now raised $268 million (€234 million) in total so far.

New board member, Siemens’ Christian, said: ‘Our investment represents an acknowledgement by Siemens of the future and the potential of electromobility.

Siemens will support ChargePoint with its complementary technology portfolio and facilitate the integration of vehicle charging into modern power grids.’ This suggests ChargePoint will benefit from Siemens’ deep expertise in European standards and electricity grid architectures, giving it key inside knowledge to successfully execute its European expansion.

The company continues to grow in dominance in the US, recently adding to its predominantly US-based 36,000 charging station network with the acquisition of General Electric’s 9,800 charge points, including its commercial WattStations and residential DuraStations.


ChargePoint announced its new 400kW ‘Express Plus’ fast chargers at the Consumer Electronics Show in January, which it says will add hundreds of miles of range for EV drivers in less than 15 minutes.

This is competitive with that offered by Tesla’s Supercharger network. As more and more EVs flood the US market, it is likely ChargePoint will be able to out-compete Tesla’s network in the years to come if the latter remains exclusive to Tesla cars.
 

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When the big boys start replacing their existing lineup with EV maybe then you have a point. Right now the major makers are only building enough EV to keep them legal for selling IC cars in California and China.

Charging points are few and far between compared to filling stations. Maybe post again on this topic in 2025....
 

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They're not complacent, they just don't see any profit in EVs now or in the near future.

Germans are often seen as techno freaks, but actually they are money people first, and they hate to send good money after bad, like money to Greece.

Their head tells them, whatever the clarion calls from the media and bankers' notes, that there is no money in electric, at least in the mass market.

They are being forced to make an offering due to the collapse of diesel and the green anti-fossil fuel bandwagon, so with their hard-headed pragmatism, not wide-eyed techno lust, they are getting their chemical mates to grab hold of the fundamentals of these milkfloats, and get the costs into control.

Tesla will fall over with the Model 3. It's not just that there is fundamentally no money in a $35k EV, it's that they can't do mass production. It's this that is actually killing them, as quality and costs go out of control at Fremont.
Wow!!! A well reasoned post. All valid points.

But the world is full - absolutely bursting - with missed opportunities, because people couldn't figure out how to make money with a disruptive technology.

Examples:

Google - give everything aways for free (search, email, storage, etc). No one could figure out how to make money. But now Google is one of the most profitable companies in the world, and the Europeans are left with the option to fine Google on stupid accusations, to collect some of that.

iPod/Itunes - no one could figure out how to make money on digital music and digital music players - But Apple did and run away with the market to massive profits.

Jet Planes - no manufacturer or airline in the 50s could figure out how to make or operate jet airlines profitably. Most clung to piston engines. But by the late 60s all that didn't move to Jets were dead.

You can even say the same thing about the automobile. In the beginning circa 1900 no one knew how to make a profitable automobile. Companies were starting and failing all the time. Eventually a few Ford, Daimler, Chevrolet figured it out and ran away with profits.

EVs and Batteries is the same thing. The technology makes a lot of sense. But it is expensive and has some limitations (range, charging speed). This makes it a prime candidate for some company to go all in and run away with the market. Which Tesla and only Tesla is doing.

Without Tesla, all the Legacy automakers could just collective sit back and not invest in EVs, claiming no market interest, not technical feasibility.

Tesla changed the game. It showed to the market, the politicians and the public that EVs can be fast, fun, incredibly safe, have lots of interior space, and cheap to operate.

Now, the Legacy automakers can't hide anymore. Politicians will do what they do to encourage EVs, and if the Legacy automakers don't do anything Tesla runs away with their business.
 

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Wow!!! A well reasoned post. All valid points.

But the world is full - absolutely bursting - with missed opportunities, because people couldn't figure out how to make money with a disruptive technology.
We'll see Sunday - what Musk announces.
 

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We'll see Sunday - what Musk announces.
He will just announce details on the Tesla Model 3 configurations and pricing and say they'll start shipping by the end of July.
 

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It is not too late if the I-Pace is done right and proves to be a worthy vehicle. The issue is that Jaguar is doing the I-Pace in a rushed, desperate mode. The chances of them producing a competitive product in this fashion is nil.
I'm not quite sure where you got the idea JLR are rushing the I-Pace ....... my understanding is the project was started in 2013 and could be launched in September 2017 but they are doing at least 6 months further testing to make sure its 100% right.
 

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Charging points are few and far between compared to filling stations. Maybe post again on this topic in 2025....
Last time I looked most houses have an electrical charge point - its called a wall socket.
Also how many petrol stations would you need if you left your house everyday with a full tank of fuel ..... which will happen in an I-Pace (or any EV for that matter)
 

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EVs and Batteries is the same thing. The technology makes a lot of sense. But it is expensive and has some limitations (range, charging speed). This makes it a prime candidate for some company to go all in and run away with the market. Which Tesla and only Tesla is doing.

Without Tesla, all the Legacy automakers could just collective sit back and not invest in EVs, claiming no market interest, not technical feasibility.
JLR actually started the I-Pace project BEFORE Tesla knew whether the Model S would be a success or not, they also gambled that the batteries they needed for their car would actually be available when the car was due to be launched in 2018 (they were not available at the time the project started).

So like Tesla, JLR gambled that the EV market would take off - I for one am glad they did.
 

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JLR actually started the I-Pace project BEFORE Tesla knew whether the Model S would be a success or not, they also gambled that the batteries they needed for their car would actually be available when the car was due to be launched in 2018 (they were not available at the time the project started).

So like Tesla, JLR gambled that the EV market would take off - I for one am glad they did.
Amazing they(JLR) had such foresight, but were as blind as a bat when it came to PHEVs.

9 years of bumbling around and counting to come with a single PHEV, but we're to believe from an official? source that for EV JLR were incredibly galvanized, super efficient, just 4 years concept to Job 1, and bold in their gamble that paid off. Are there two managements at JLR? two JLRs? two universes, where JLR is this bold, decisive, thrusting creature, leading the industry with its amazing foresight, as opposed to the one that most of us know as the one that spins the XJ out into its 9th/16th(X350) year, can't organise an Ingenium **** up in a NOx brewery, and promises the six-cylinder Ingenium also by coincidence since 2013?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Interesting new video from Jaguar that should encourage Jagular that Jaguar’s electric car will swell the number of manufacturers in the EV market which he says doesn’t exist.
Doubt that the IPace will be subsidised by the taxpayers in the UK, far too pricey.

 
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