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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Baron95,

I know you are frustrated by sales figures - but remember they can go down as well as up. The US market is both fickle and very unstable at present. When we speak to both GM and Ford execs, they all say that planning is difficult at present both due to economics and the rapidly changing consumer expectations for all sectors of the market.

The USA is a rather special market in many respects. The fragmented nature of state by state legislation, the diesel issues and historical addiction to very odd vehicles causes planning issues when carmakers are looking at truly global vehicles.

Every car manufacturer, both domestic and overseas, have challenges - non have a magic bullet at present.

JLR is an international company ; the US market is not the same huge driver that it is for others. If you look at the markets in China, India, Easter Europe - you can see why JLR has to also provide to them. Many would argue the X and S types suffered badly by trying to pander to the US consumer at the expense of the more sophisticated consumers elsewhere.

If you get the chance to speak to real JLR people, they have a massive passion for the brand and are convinced that Tata have the ability to let them succeed. Remember that Tata have revenues of over $60Bln, nearly 400,000 employees. They did not get to that size by killing good brands or ideas.

I don't know your motor industry background or knowledge, but we talk to the industry every day - even competitors believe JLR is in a recover and growth stage. The US market is no indicator of JLR's global strength.
 
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This is more like it....a thread dedicated to baron`s rant.....For what it`s worth I think he made a few valid(or should that be interesting) points in the original thread and I look forward to reading any further posts.....That said I`am just a customer and I`v no idea whats going on in the JLR boardroom....or for that matter the competency of Tata`s stewardship of the business.....What does interest me though is why baron feels so strongly that the business is being mismanaged.....does he know something we don`t????
 

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I must say I didn't think Baron95 was ranting. I think the main issue was a perfectly valid point.

Personally I think the XF is loosing sales in the USA due to it's very limited engine line up. The 5.0 litre engines are not economical. I suspect potential Jaguar buyers in the US are more sophisticated. If you have the choice between the XF and the E-class or 5 series, both with very good smaller petrol engines, and you need petrol, then you're likely pick something other than an XF.

We've also seen Jaguar pushing the brand in major US cities. So they can't pretend they aren't bothered. But at the same time, limited resources etc. Means they can only do so much.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
stevewallis100 said:
We've also seen Jaguar pushing the brand in major US cities. So they can't pretend they aren't bothered. But at the same time, limited resources etc. Means they can only do so much.
They are bothered - the premium US sector is lucrative. However, it is not the same market as 10 years ago. Low volume producers suffer badly in the USA unless the vehicle is a roaring success. Look at other niche brands like Alfa, Lotus etc. Even Fiat is only just returning with the 500.

The engine offerings are indeed not optimised for the US market. The rest of the world predominantly takes diesels - in this the US market is an oddity. If you were JLR, would you put your money into a petrol engine that takes, at a guesstimate 10% of the XF sales worldwide (can't be bothered to check the database!) or into the diesel powertrains that give you the majority of revenues. The XK has been criticised for not offering a modern oil burner ... that tells you the state of the market expectations.

Once the new mild and full hybrids units become viable, the petrol vs diesel debate starts to disappear and it then becomes a new opportunity for JLR to make serious inroads with both fresh models (updated XF, mini-XF, XJ) all with eco powertrains that will hopefully be up there with the best Daimler/Ford/GM can offer.

The state of the USA market is, I still maintain, no indicator of the health of JLR but much more to do with some unique local market conditions. It is frustrating for US customers of Jaguar (not LR - they are doing well) and I can see how the brand's fans will be miffed. With the bigger picture in mind (something our cousins across the pond might sometimes struggle with: :) ), the outlook is a lot more rosey.

Anyhow - that's my toll food on the subject. Fire away :mrgreen:
 

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Guys, New the forum so bear with me. Just bought my 1st Jag. 2011 XF Premium. Considered BMW 5, Merc E and Audi A6. Boring, boring and really boring. Jag price/performance outclassed all three. Contrary to a post I saw, this aint a patriotic thing going on here. Jag has a poor rep for reliability and this kills in a market where folks drive...a lot. Many miles put on cars here. The 5/50 warranty looks slim compared to the 100k warranties from others. I agree the lack of AWD is a problem particularly when much of the market for lux auto is in the Northeast. Can't tell you how many people have said, "Sweet ride!" "gorgeous!" "fantastic acceleration, no throttle delay", etc. and in the next breath said, "don't these things breakdown a lot?" My answer; Let's hope not. P.S. just saw a piece on yahoo indicating the XF as a product to avoid due to reliability.
 

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I just now saw that this thread existed.

I'm sorry, but you can't talk about JLR results. The issue is not JLR. The issue is Jaguar and specifically the XF sales performance.

LR is doing just reasonably OK.

It is Jaguar sales that are going down when every one else is going up. Including niche vendors like Porsche and Maserati, Rolls, Bentley.

I just posted December sales results on another thread. And if you discount Lexus (recovering from its well publicized recall nightmare) *ALL* Premium Import brands are up by double digits and Jaguar is down.

There is *nothing* different in 2010 than 2009 than 2008. All the so called "difficulties" - no AWD, no V6, etc - existed in the past years. Yet Jaguar sales are going down (even with the new XJ) and the XF sales are abysmally bad. On average, each US dealer is selling 2 XFs a month. One every other week and about 4 or 5 newcars per month total.

That is horrible. Sooner or later dealers will close shop. Mine has. My closes dealer is now 30 miles away.

What happens when the previous X-type, S-type owners (the XF main customers) are done trading in their cars? Where is the showroom traffic going to come from?

***** Full Disclaimer ***** Last year, I evaluated coming in as part of a group of investors to take over a US Jaguar Dealership. I (and all the others except one) came to the same conclusion and passed on the investment. I can tell you some of the reasons in another post, but there was absolutely no confidence by the team that Tata new how to support US sales. It is by the good graces of the virtues of the cars and enthusiasts like us that they sell at all. And apparently Tata does not know how to execute even in India as their sales performance is lagging all their rivals. So, not Tata gets no free pass with me. Press releases mean nothing. Results talk.

If Jaguar makes the mistake of saying (like Nokia did) that we are OK everywhere except the US, so life is good, it will not end well. IMHO, that is :)
 

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And how do you explain this J.D. Power 2010 Customer Retention study - excluding Saab (which went out of business and stopped selling cars), Jaguar has the worst customer retention of any brand.



If the cars are good, and I think we all agree they are, it has to be some pretty awful sales execution if of all Jaguar owners trading in their cars only 16% buy another Jag and 84% move to another brand. Right?

Something is seriously wrong with Jaguar sales execution and Mr. Tata and Mr. Foster apparently think they can fix it with fuzzy press releases of how good the future will be.
 

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Haven't we had this discussion on another thread about retention rates? BMW can start you in a Mini, move you to a 1-series when you get hitched, a 3-series when you get a dull job, a 5 series when you become an "executive" and a 7-series when you get on the board, plus an X5 for the wife and kids and a Z4 when you start to worry your downstairs isn't working. Jaguar has a high entry point, and when you're done with your XF where do you move - I currently own a Mondeo estate as my second car. Jag can't provide for me there. When I have kids I'll consider an S-Max or Discovery. Jaguar (ignoring LR as you are) cannot cater for me there either.

Your graph doesn't include Lotus. I bet their retention rates look funny too.

It takes time to build a brand up and extend the range. Ford screwed it up with the X-type and S-types and it has taken years to recover. Jag now has 3 great cars, but needs to extend. Until it has a big range of cars there is nowhere to move, but it takes billions and a lot of time to do it right and not kill the brand. We know Jaguar is a niche brand at the moment, so can we move onto other things please.

I would like to see a graph of JLR sales by continent to see whether the US is that important any more? I know a number of features of the XJ have been specifically designed with China and India in mind as growth markets. The comparison to Nokia is only relevant if Jaguar cannot survive without selling big in the US. Have to agree with previous posters that hybrids are still a bit of a joke and diesel is the killer engine everywhere else in the world. The US is odd in this, so I wouldn't expect JLR to be rolling out a huge range of new petrol engines until they get decent hybrids out the door.

The Baron also says nothing has changed in the last 2 years. That may be true for Jaguar, and the market as a whole, but the other brands have been reinvesting in their successful brands and adding new engines and options, like AWD etc so until Jaguar expands I would expect it to attract a decreasing market share as the other makes squeeze it out by offering more options.
 

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I don't think you are reading the graph correctly. These are Make retention rates, not Group retention rates.

Mini (an extremely limited range), just to pick a Make you cited, has a retention rate of 35%, twice that of Jaguar. And they are basically a single model brand.

Porsche, which I think is a good benchmark for Jaguar, with similar volumes, aspirational, etc, has a 39% retention rate, that is 2.5 times that of Jaguar (and that is without the Panamera in the picture for most of the survey period). I expect that to be higher still in 2011. Even Land Rover (a 3 model, all SUV line-up in the US) has a retention rate 3 times that of Jaguar.

My point, is that if Tata/Jaguar does not capitalize *now* when they have the freshest/best model line up in history, the opportunity will be gone. You have to strike while the iron is hot, right? Next year, the XF will be old news, the XK will be aging, the XJ will be less impactful. Then what? Have you seen the redesign spy photos of the XF for 2012? There is nothing new. It is very tame.

I think there is a very real risk that Jaguar sales go over the edge in the US. When with proper sales execution it could easily be 2 or 3 times what it is.
 
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