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The MY2020 facelift of the Jaguar XE has just been revealed. I imagine it's for the Geneva Auto Show, since everybody seems to be revealing new car models. If we forget all the talk about the problems for JLR at the moment, I must say, I really like it. I think it looks good. I like the more rounded grill and the new rear lights. I like, that it's being brought more up-to-date with technology like full LED rear lights and LED headlights. It was embarrassing with old fashioned light bulbs in the rear. There are also practical solutions like wireless phone charging, Apple CarPlay and other things that will be appreciated in day to day use. It also seems to be going upmarket. The manual gearbox and cloth seats are gone, and so are several engine choices. There seems to be only the 180 PS diesel and the 250 and 300 PS petrol engines. All 4 cylinder 2.0 liters. And most importantly: If a facelift of the XE is shown, the XF is bound to follow shortly.

Jaguar-XE-2020-1600-1c.jpg

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Jaguar-XE-2020-1600-15.jpg
 

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The MY2020 facelift of the Jaguar XE has just been revealed.
What happened to the comprehensive update, almost redesign, that I'm sure was trailed a year or so ago?

Just new bumpers - the easiest thing to do because plastic. The bootlid has had a small change, for the dip in the rear light, and a crease mark, but this is aluminium or composite.

Personally, I think the 'new' car looks older. The integrity as it was of the 2014 car has been messed up, especially in the lower front and rear aprons. The car now looks even more mid noughties, 10 to 15 years off the pace. It looks more and more like a Ford Fusion/Mondeo, which itself is still fundamentally a 2007 car.

BUT, the huge story is surely the engines. Two things:

1. what happened to the Ingenium mild hybrids? Why aren't they in this XE facelift? Surely if they're 'live', as shown by the now months ago Evoque II, which supposedly has them, why aren't they in the XE? Something's gone wrong?

2. where's the Ingenium I6? Again, it's supposedly already been launched, so why hasn't it been read across here? Something gone wrong? Vapourware - in the RR Sport HST - for PR purposes?

I'm sure the defenders will say 'it doesn't fit'. The 2013 RR Sport is essentially the same car as the XE, as the XF II, F-Pace etc. They're all on the 2009/2003 XJ's platform - 'PLA', 'iQAl' etc.

The XE has a huge, disproportionately long bonnet, for its 4.7m overall length, courtesy of being a cut down XJ.

BMW* can fit its I6 into the similar length 3-Series, so why can't JLR fit its brand new I6 into the XE?

If it existed, was ready to go, it would be a no-brainer, surely. A 400hp XE would at least revive the 'Jaguar'-ness, and take the fight to the new M340i and C43 AMG.

* it can also of course fit its latest I6 petrol, the 'B58', in the smaller RWD 1- and 2- Series, and the outgoing M3's 'S55' I6 in the M2 Competition.


PS fitting just the Ingenium 2-litre I4 into the facelifted XE is a disaster, as shown by this comparison by home-team Auto Express:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/macan/106118/porsche-macan-vs-jaguar-f-pace

The Ingenium I4 petrol is outputting around 25% less than stated/claimed - 180-190 PS for the 250 PS '25t'.

A near £50k 4-cylinder F-Pace or £40k bog standard XE, with real performance similar to a £20k mid range Golf, with 150 PS, is not going to bring the punters flocking back.

It's a disgrace. Let's cal it what it is.

The Ingenium is a disaster. Vibration killed it - built too light, to compensate for the obese vehicles.

Speth knew this in 2013 at the lastest. Rather than kill it, and lose all that taxpayer money, we now 6 years later arrive at the postion of a 'Jag' having a 4-pot with less power than a £25k VAG 2-litre econobox.

This is why JLR is dead. Engines killed it, as I've said. Speth should be strung up for this huge, single decision - to plough on with this garbage, failed engine.

He ruined everything. He should have taken the hit, the ~£1bn in lost taxpayer money for the Ingenium engine in total, and gone and bought BMW's, VAG's, or Ford's engines.
 

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The facelifted XE, and XF if it is on the way, needs to overcome the hostility of the Diesel engine.
Jaguar can insist that the Ingenium diesel is the cleanest ever but the fact remains that VW did for the diesel and I doubt that Jaguar’s faith will be shared across Europe.
In addition to the rejection by the public of Diesel engines there is a rejection of saloons in favour of crossover/SUVs.
 

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The facelifted XE, and XF if it is on the way, needs to overcome the hostility of the Diesel engine.
Jaguar can insist that the Ingenium diesel is the cleanest ever but the fact remains that VW did for the diesel and I doubt that Jaguar’s faith will be shared across Europe.
- so where's the mild hybrid? The Evoque's supposedly getting it/them, so what's happened?

Come on @Jag SM, you said the XE was getting was 'a major update/facelift'. All that's happened is they've slashed the engine offering.

Ingenium mild hybrid - eulogy: 'was never long for this world. In fact, never born. Was just a twinkle in a PR man's eye, and a £500m hole in a taxpayer's pocket'.
 

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Jaguar can insist that the Ingenium diesel is the cleanest ever
JLR's RDE Step 2 is BS. ADAC have tested all the latest non-RDE Step 2, just 'Euro 6d TEMP' diesels, and found all except one to be under 80 mg/km NOx, when 'RDE Step 2', compulsory only from 2020/21, allows 120 mg/km (1.5 times the Euro 6 80 mg level):

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6733271/Are-diesel-cars-really-dirty-Tests-reveal-models-produce-zero-NOx-emissions.html

Not one of course of these proven, virtually zero-NOx emtting diesels is from JLR, yet they claim to be the first to meet the stricter 'Step 2' level.

It's marketing BS, condoned, rubber stamped by UK.gov, the DfT, Grayling's shower of liars and cowards, just to allow JLR to get a 4% BiK advantage, to try to bail them out, by getting some company car sales.

What user-chooser company car person is going to choose an XE over a new 3-Series? Are there that many mad people in Britain? Don't answer.
 

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- so where's the mild hybrid? The Evoque's supposedly getting it/them, so what's happened?

Come on @Jag SM, you said the XE was getting was 'a major update/facelift'. All that's happened is they've slashed the engine offering.

Ingenium mild hybrid - eulogy: 'was never long for this world. In fact, never born. Was just a twinkle in a PR man's eye, and a £500m hole in a taxpayer's pocket'.
Don't know I was told a while ago mild hybrid was ready to go and being made in china but evidently it hasn't made it for launch of either Evoke (although it is supposed to be coming sooner rather than later for Evoke) or XE so clearly duff info. I can't see what is so hard to make as its essentially an off the shelf unit from ZF. Auotcar says it'll arrive in a year, no idea why it should take so long unless JLR is down the queue for it after BMW/Merc/VW etc.

The rest of it is exactly what I predicted, LED lights, Incontrol duo pro, upgraded interior materials etc etc.

The absence of the 6 cylinder doesn't surprise me, if I was Jaguar I'd save that for 6-12 months to bring a load more press and get the car out there again once the initial hype had died down. This is exactly the marketing strategy everyone else uses eg GTI PP/R, S3/RS3, M series etc etc.

I do think that they need a smaller petrol than the 250ps though, I notice they haven't bothered to bring out a 200ps version so maybe the 1.5 isn't too far away. Also notable that even though in the marketing video they said all were available in AWD the British configurator doesn't offer 250ps petrol in AWD - presumably it doesn't sell well as they quietly killed that off in the MY19 update last year.

Anyway this must have been a surprise for you as you were telling us all it was cancelled not so long back?
 

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So the V6 petrol XE is no more, after the facelift. But the US market desperately needs a high power, large engine option, to fight the M340i, C43 AMG etc.

So what does this tell us? Surely it tells us that if the Ingenium I6 existed, in standard, mild hybrid, whatever form and version, it would have gone into the facelift.

So, either the Ingenium I6 doesn't exist, or there's a major problem with it, stopping it from being made.

I posit that the major problem is that it doesn't work.

Like the I4, its real power output will be so poor, around 300 versus 400 Ps claimed for the hybrid version, that JLR just can't release it, especially when it's up against the excellence of something like the M340i, at aropund £47k, which JLR hasn't a hope of meeting anyway, given its production costs at i54 and Castle Bromwich, versus BMW's million units type econmies of scale for their 'B58' I6 and G30 3-Series over 6/7 years.

JLR, like all British automakers post war, has been laid low by engines. They cost a fortune, and even then there's no guarantee of success.

Rover found a GM reject, the Buick V8, and saved themselves - imagine the 1970 Range Rover without that V8.

Jaguar Cars, pre and post privatisation, was crippled by its off the pace engines, the post 1973 gas-guzzling V12, and the more powerful, more fuel efficient engines, the 'M30' I6 and so on, from the likes of BMW.

Ford saved the day with the 1996 AJ-V8.

No one has ridden in to save Tata's JLR, and its awful engines.

Forget the I-Pace and Cropley's fairy dust, what JLR needed was BMW's engines in 2013.

It's too late now.
 

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Anyway this must have been a surprise for you as you were telling us all it was cancelled not so long back?
Hydrajaws.

There was nothing 'to kill off'. A set of bumpers and job jobbed.

But for anyone to swallow that JLR intentionally launched a facelift without either the mild hybrid/3-cyl. Ingenium, and a six-cylinder, is garbage.

No 6-cylinder, powerful XE in the States is commercial hara-kiri.

There's no 'rollout plan'. The G20 new 3-Series gets the mid-range, 350-400 hp, offering immediately, the M340i.

The Ingenium - I6, mild hybrid, 3-cyl. - is a huge failure, to go along with the original vibrating, hugely underpowered I4 diesel and petrol.

A huge scandal, given the amout of public money given to this foreign-owned, private company, but not a word of any of this in UK 'journalism'. F'ing invertebrates, the lot of them.
 

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LOL

Cheers
- I think that sums up JLR engineering. Hic.

This 'facelift' hasn't touched the suspension, the steering, the brakes, the gearbox, other than dropping the manual, the engines, other than dropping the V6 petrol and lower tuned 4-cyl. versions, nor hardly the bodywork, other than a possible tiny change to the bootlid.

Obviously, even to the most brain dead JLR fanboys, the original purpose and intention of this mid life lift, planned we're told since 2015, early 2016, was to put in the trailed since 2016 mild hybrid Ingeniums, either 3-cylinder, 4-cylinder, or both, and to finally pension off the petrol V6, especially since Ford will stop making it the end of this year, if not sooner, and put in the Ingenium straight six.

Now we're told that 'it'll be released later', 'rolled out later - all planned'.

JLR and its media mates have been trailing the Ingenium I6 since 2013.

How long does it take to make a new JLR engine? 7 years? WWII was fought in 6.

Come on, grow up. If it existed, it would have been launched. Not in the 2019/2020MY XE, but in the XF II, possibly XE.

Speth knew in 2013 it was a dud - Ingenium is modular. The I4, both diesel and petrols, were known duds dy then, so the I6 was going to be too.

Speth went shopping, and failed.

The I6 has been covered up since. It doesn't work - too low power, too high vibration/no smoothness, too high fuel consumption.

Launching in the Facelift XE would have exposed it directly to the 'B58' Bimmer engine, which would have ripped it a new one - as everyone knows.

JLR, even with 100% of the media behind it, couldn't pull that off, such a turkey against such an excellent engine/car.

JLR has, I believe, decided to:

- bin the Ford-supplied V6
- try to make XE, XF and co live on, on just 4 cylinders
- get the media to obscure as much as possible this fact
- then, er... pray

- actually, kid on, using Cropley and co, 'fairy dust etc', that Jag's future is EV anyway, and ICEs, whether I4, !6, V8, don't matter anymore; so the I6 Ingenium's no-show is moot anyway.

BUT, I don't see how they get Land Rover to this EV/'MLA' future, without a particulate filter, certified, 'ULEV20' or whatever V6 and V8, for their huge, heavy SUVs.

You can't sell 50k of RR Sports and full fats in the US each year with 4-cylinder PHEVs, at $100k+, when the competition, like Porsche, is doing six-cylinder, much more powerful PHEVs, with greater range etc.

So, it's either actually they are praying, or they're about to announce a V8 supply deal with BMW - 'Project Jennifer'.

Personally, I think it's the former, prayer, as BMW has moved on itself to killing off anything above 6 cylinders, and is concentrating on iNext EV etc.

Speth and his lieutenants must be hoping/expecting that before all this engine malarkey, disastrous situation really hits the fan of public knowledge - 'where did all the Ingenium public money go, to what purpose? etc - that either JLR will have been sold by Tata to the Chinese, or they will have retired - Callum goes this year, 65, and Speth is due in 12 months or so.

That's 'The Plan', guys.
 

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Sorry Guys but my “Mole” did not get this right but I did ask “yes or no” that the facelifed XE was cancelled as part of the cost saving measures now in place at JLR. Perhaps longer term the replacement for the XE will not happen.
 

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Sorry Guys but my “Mole” did not get this right but I did ask “yes or no” that the facelifed XE was cancelled as part of the cost saving measures now in place at JLR. Perhaps longer term the replacement for the XE will not happen.
no problem. It's much ado about nothing anyway.

Autocar trying to cover its client's embarrassment, obfuscating why the I6 Ingenium hasn't appeared:

Jaguar Land Rover has just released a new inline six-cylinder petrol engine in the Range Rover Sport, but with the XE S axed due to slow sales it remains to be seen whether that engine will return to the larger models.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/big-updates-jaguar-xf-and-f-pace-follow-new-xe

- they're trying to imply that the Ingenium I6 no-showed because there was no point - 'slow sales of large engine petrol saloons'.

Yes, but that's the UK. What explains the no-show of the Ingenium I6 in the US?

F'ing weasels are having a hard time covering for their master's mistakes.

Just come clean, like Speth should have done in 2013, and say the I6 is no more, because: '4-cylinder mild hybrids and PHEVs can cover 80-90% of customers, and EVs on the new 'MLA' platform will take over the high power, high price offering from 2020'.

No charge for the free press release.
 

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no problem. It's much ado about nothing anyway.

Autocar trying to cover its client's embarrassment, obfuscating why the I6 Ingenium hasn't appeared:



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/big-updates-jaguar-xf-and-f-pace-follow-new-xe

- they're trying to imply that the Ingenium I6 no-showed because there was no point - 'slow sales of large engine petrol saloons'.

Yes, but that's the UK. What explains the no-show of the Ingenium I6 in the US?

F'ing weasels are having a hard time covering for their master's mistakes.

Just come clean, like Speth should have done in 2013, and say the I6 is no more, because: '4-cylinder mild hybrids and PHEVs can cover 80-90% of customers, and EVs on the new 'MLA' platform will take over the high power, high price offering from 2020'.

No charge for the free press release.
Interesting, they only sell the 300 petrol in the states in R-dynamic trim and only the 250 petrol in pure, both RWD & AWD but both are badged S.

You are completely right no V6 will kill them in the states, I can't see them not releasing it - they can't bin off I6 because as you rightly surmise in your other post it is required for LR.

Hydrajaws

I've also heard rumour of XE coming to an end after this one and given the conjecture about them merging the two into a single electric car I suspect that it has legs.

Also rumours of new XJ flying around, apparently massive, electric and fastback, old XJ has finally been made EOL.
 

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The absence of the 6 cylinder doesn't surprise me, if I was Jaguar I'd save that for 6-12 months to bring a load more press and get the car out there again once the initial hype had died down. This is exactly the marketing strategy everyone else uses eg GTI PP/R, S3/RS3, M series etc etc.
Errrr....No. In fact BMW has done exactly the opposite. The new 3-series launches in the USA exclusively with the new I6 engine with 382HP and a 4.2sec 0-60MPH time. The I4 2.0 arriving a bit later.

As I posted on the other thread, the changes to style in the XE are all good and welcome. But having the car top out at 296BHP and 4cyl engines is simply ridiculous in this day and age.
 

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I like it. But I would lke to see a new XF more.
 

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Also rumours of new XJ flying around, apparently massive, electric and fastback
- bit like this, then:

https://www.germancarforum.com/attachments/e8d78eed-aa28-4b25-8d0d-b2ba65598345-jpeg.470791/

- new Flying Spur.

Bentley has moved into the spot where the XJ would have been if it had evolved properly from 1968 to today - S-Class+/Maybach/Bentley territory.

Bentley under Vickers etc was a joke, at the time of the first XJ onwards.

Now that it's a LWB Porsche Panamera, with the option of a 12-cylinder, it's - to me - the best car in the world - where the Series I XJ was, arguably.

The point I'm making is VAG's Bentley has replaced and made obsolete Jaguar - the real Jaguar - large, powerful, luxury saloons.

From a UK point of view, Bentley has also made JLR's Jaguar moot. Why do we need Jaguar anymore, when we have the world beater, world leader Bentley, knocking out around 20,000 cars, maybe 30-40,000, when the XJ is now barely doing 10,000/yr?

JLR can promise, and promise all they like, about a just around the corner new EV XJ, but that will be overwhelmed by the likes of the Merc EQS, just over a year away.

No, the new Flying spur is everything the range topper, 'best car in the world' XJ should have been by now, if it had had two genuinely new generations since Ford's 2003 X350.

2019 Bentley is 1960s 'Lyons'' Jaguar - pregnant with possibility, funds, tech knowhow, and a wave of new product, that will put Bentley even beyond the Merc S-Class, as seen by the fantastic new Continental GT/GTC - 2 door Panameras.

VAG is back to being a steam roller, with even Daimler and BMW terrified, hence these two's first steps to cooperate - merger?

We in UK need to recognise and accept that Bentley is the UK's future, and Jaguar/JLR the past.
 

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Also rumours of new XJ flying around, apparently massive, electric and fastback, old XJ has finally been made EOL.
Going EV XJ, if it exists, is mental. Remember the story put out by the media earlier this week that the next Porsche Macan would be EV? Well... :

“The move to a fully electric model line-up is suitable for certain markets but, due to a lack of infrastructure and other hurdles, it is yet not possible in other markets,” said Porsche. “We are constantly monitoring the situation and can react accordingly.”
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/petrol-porsche-macan-continue-alongside-electric-model-2021

So the 'next Porsche Macan goes EV' story was 100% BS.

What Porsche/VAG is actually doing is what a sensible, normal car company would do - ride both horses - EV and ICE.

The 'next-gen Macan EV' is actually nothing of the sort, but just another version of the 'PPE'-platformed Taycan/Audi e-tron GT/Taycan Turismo etc.

The just facelifteted 2014- Macan, is the actual Macan, that will live on past the intro of the PPE 'Macan', in 2020/21.

What Porsche is doing is no different to Merc and BMW, with the nominal 'EV S-Class', the EQS, whilst the real S-Class continues with the 2020 'W223'.

BMW similarly with the X3 and iX3, and so on.

To junk the XJ and go EV is madness. You'd only do it if you were a very small company or very hard up.

That's why JLR is doing it. They cannot afford to develop an S-Class competitor, given that the current XJ dates back to 2003, and the 'W223' S-Class is just around the corner, so JLR is effectively 3 generations behind, which would take billiions, thousands of engineers and 5-7 years to try and claw back.

The top people at VAG, Daimler and BMW know that EV is currently in the mania/cult phase, which will pass in 1-2 years, as they become more common, and people wonder what all the fuss was about, especially when they have to pay ~$10k more for a similar car to their old ICE.

So, these companies are keeping ICE bubbling away on the back burner for now, knowing there will be a backlash, and the occurring grand solar minimum will literally cool people's ardour for EV, particularly in the wealthy areas of above 40 deg. latitude.
 

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Errrr....No. In fact BMW has done exactly the opposite. The new 3-series launches in the USA exclusively with the new I6 engine with 382HP and a 4.2sec 0-60MPH time. The I4 2.0 arriving a bit later.

As I posted on the other thread, the changes to style in the XE are all good and welcome. But having the car top out at 296BHP and 4cyl engines is simply ridiculous in this day and age.
Interesting, that isn't even offered in Europe yet from what I can tell.

For better or worse Jag's upper mid range is now 4 cylinder and anything 6 cylinder will be branded S or above. In all fairness to Jaguar Audi doesn't have a 6 cylinder A4 or A3, Volvo doesn't have a 6 cylinder anything, Porsche doesn't retail anything 6 cylinder in that price range, Alfa 6 cylinder begins at Quadrifoglio so its really only Mercedes that offer 6 cylinder models for circa £50k starting price in Europe.

If/When Jaguar launch XE 6 cylinder I'd expect it to have 400+ bhp so it would compete with M3, C63 & Quadrifoglio and cost the thick end of £60k.

I don't disagree with you though - as I said that will kill them in the states. My comments on marketing were aimed at the european market sorry for not making that clearer.
 

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Interesting, that isn't even offered in Europe yet from what I can tell.

For better or worse Jag's upper mid range is now 4 cylinder and anything 6 cylinder will be branded S or above. In all fairness to Jaguar Audi doesn't have a 6 cylinder A4 or A3, Volvo doesn't have a 6 cylinder anything, Porsche doesn't retail anything 6 cylinder in that price range, Alfa 6 cylinder begins at Quadrifoglio so its really only Mercedes that offer 6 cylinder models for circa £50k starting price in Europe.
- the majorly facelifted, effectively new series car, A4, is within months of launch, which will have an 'S4', with the V6, after being dropped from the current car for WLTP/particulate filter.

- Volvo is outselling JLR 2:1 in the real world, as its image is safety, not outright performance, with Polestar PHEV and now BEV taking that role

- Porsche? It has access to VAG's petrol V6 for the Macan, and has wised up to wealthy punters willing to pay for nat-asp sports cars, its six cylinder in the Cayman GT4, 992 911 GT cars etc.

Alfa has a 280 PS petrol 4-cylinder, compared to JLR's true sub-200 PS Ingenium 4-pot.


If/When Jaguar launch XE 6 cylinder I'd expect it to have 400+ bhp so it would compete with M3, C63 & Quadrifoglio and cost the thick end of £60k.
'400+ bhp' doesn't compete with X3/X4 Ms, M3s etc. BMW's new 'S58' I6 M motor is stated at 510 PS, in the Competition version, meaning at least that in reality. And that's just the start of the development of this new engine - around 540 PS should be attainable.

You're dreaming if you think JLR's engineers will get within 100 hp of that.

Speth failed. His failure to buy BMW's 6 and V8, or VAG's in 2013, is the cause of JLR's engine-rooted failure now.
 

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This will decimate the 'new' XE:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/3-series/106192/new-bmw-330e-2019-review

Crucially, it starts under £40k for private buyers, and for business drivers its BiK is 16% for 2019/20, versus 30% for the most efficient diesel XE, with the 4% 'RDE Step 2' discount of 4% included.

So around £2,000 less company car tax(40% taxpayer) for the plug-in 3-Series versus an XE 180PS 20d SE(£36k list price).

Plus, the 330e is a far faster, far better car.

JLR should have stuck a fork in the XE around 2017.
 

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This will decimate the 'new' XE:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/3-series/106192/new-bmw-330e-2019-review

Crucially, it starts under £40k for private buyers, and for business drivers its BiK is 16% for 2019/20, versus 30% for the most efficient diesel XE, with the 4% 'RDE Step 2' discount of 4% included.

So around £2,000 less company car tax(40% taxpayer) for the plug-in 3-Series versus an XE 180PS 20d SE(£36k list price).

Plus, the 330e is a far faster, far better car.

JLR should have stuck a fork in the XE around 2017.
We will see, it will be great value if they are giving the electric motor and battery for an extra £5k but I think it'll be a £7k-£8k premium over 320i.

Will do well for company car drivers though.
 
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