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Discussion Starter #1
Top Gear set out to show that the two are not the same.



IMG_0323.jpg

People are talking of the Velar as ‘Range Rover’s Macan rival.’ But it isn’t.

The company already has a Porsche Macanrival. The Jaguar F-Pace. So what’s the Velar for?

To understand, we need a little background.

The Velar and F-Pace use the same aluminium body architecture, the same engines, much of the same suspension. Their wheelbase is the same. Which of course they would be, because Jaguar and Land Rover – or in this case Range Rover – are all the same company. Why would they do the work twice? They wouldn’t, hence the similarities.

But why would they sell the same car twice, under two different badges? They aren’t. Or so they say. The Velar and the F-Pace are different.

Sit in them and they certainly feel different. JLR’s UK boss Jeremy Hicks puts it like this. “Ian [Callum, Jag’s design director] and Gerry [McGovern, ditto at Land Rover] would hate me saying this, but you sit in a Jaguar but sit on a Range Rover.”

Quite. The Velar’s seat is higher than the F-Pace’s, and its belt line is comparatively lower, so you have a high vantage point in a greenhouse. In the Jag you’re down in the body of car, which feels more sporty.

The Velar has a wonderful calming cabin, with lots of soothing earthy-coloured materials and simple geometric lines. The Jaguar’s is, again, more like a sporty saloon’s. Like an XF’s, really.

And they drive differently and have different levels of off-road ability. You can probably guess the way this is going.
When they designed this aluminium architecture (used in the Jaguar XE and XF as well as the F-Pace) the JLR engineers knew it would also be used for Land Rovers and Range Rovers, so they ‘protected’ it to have more wheel travel than Jaguars use.
Sure enough the Velar’s wheels can move up and down more than the F Pace’s, because it’s a Range Rover and goes further off the road.


The Velar also has, on many versions, air suspension. Not the Jaguar. This set-up can raise the Velar an extra 46mm for off-road conditions.

That gives big-league ground clearance and a thigh-high 650mm wading depth. It’ll also drop 40mm at a stop, to make it easier to get in and out.

Also optional on the Velar is an extra-sophisticated Terrain Response 2 system, giving serious electronic and mechanical help in various off-road conditions.

Finally, the Velar is slightly bulkier than the F-Pace. It’s longer at the back, because people use their Range Rovers for carrying bulky stuff, apparently.

Right then, can you feel all that when you drive them?

They’re not the same, say the engineers, unsurprisingly. Because Kevin Stride, Chief Programme Engineer, is responsible for both, he’s likely to give a fair answer.

He says the Velar is sportier than you might think, because it has torque vectoring by braking, adaptive dampers and, optionally, an active rear diff.
But even so, “it’s a Range Rover, so it’s all about refinement. The ride, especially the primary ride, is calmer and plusher than the Jaguar. The F-Pace is sharper.”

So the Jag has a sportier-feeling cabin where the RR is calmer. It has a firmer ride, but sharper cornering. It’s more compact and lower. It is the Porsche rival.

We haven’t driven the Velar yet, but if the engineers have got it right, it will be something different.
 

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Don't you love it when people who have not driven a vehicle (Velar) tell you how the vehicle feels to drive?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
F-Paces's Activity Key may not be reliable yet.

Will this prove to be the 2017 ICTP saga ?




Jaguar Activity Key | 2017 Autoblog Technology of the Year Finalist
LICENSE


In principle, the Jaguar Activity Key is a good idea.

It's simple, useful, and relatively inexpensive. Unfortunately, in our testing it was less than reliable.
Here's how it's supposed to work: To lock the car, leave your keys and fobs inside the vehicle, and strap the band on your wrist.

Then, within 30 seconds, place your banded wrist against the letter J of the Jaguar script on the back tailgate.

When you come back, you can unlock the vehicle by pressing the tailgate opening button, then, again within 30 seconds, placing the Activity Key band against the J of the Jaguar script.

We chose the Jaguar Activity Key as a finalist for our 2017 Tech of the Year award because it's an uncomplicated device with lots of potential customers.

Jaguar says the wristband is "robust and fully waterproof." Swimmers, surfers, kayakers, hikers, and even couples out for a sunny-day picnic could use a feature like this wristband key.

Plus, wearables are pretty new as a category in general, and even more so in the automotive space. We didn't go skydiving with it or anything (an activity Jaguar cites as a potential usage case), but we did dunk it in water with no ill effects.

While it all sounds good in theory, actually getting the Activity Key to work effectively was unexpectedly difficult, especially when the cameras were rolling.

We tried varying the timing between closing the door and using the wristband, as well as between using the tailgate button and the wristband. It worked about half the time, regardless of our process or who was wearing the wristband.

Whether our issues with the wristband were due to interference, new-technology teething problems, or just electrical gremlins, the idea of purposely locking the keys inside an automobile without having a foolproof way to unlock it gives us reason to pause.

The Activity Key is a $400 standalone option on the 2017 Jaguar F-Pace, but only on Prestige, R-Sport and S models.

The least expensive F-Pace with Activity Key costs $51,095.

 

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Will this prove to be the 2017 ICTP saga ?
'Whether our issues with the wristband were due to interference, new-technology teething problems, or just electrical gremlins, the idea of purposely locking the keys inside an automobile without having a foolproof way to unlock it gives us reason to pause.'

- silly boy doesn't realise this is part of Jaguar's famous "soul". Other manufacturers would give their eye teeth for such character.

See the 'soul' problems of Car & Driver's long-term Range Rover:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-range-rover-td6-diesel-long-term-test-update-review

JLR is the proud guardian of Lucas's 'Prince of Darkness' tradition.
 

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A solution in search of a problem. Hasn't Jaguar learned that all of us, active types, simply put our key FOBs in a ziplock bag and go do whatever it is we do?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
A solution in search of a problem. Hasn't Jaguar learned that all of us, active types, simply put our key FOBs in a ziplock bag and go do whatever it is we do?
Personally I would be reluctant to give up carrying my fob and other keys in my pocket throughout the day, never sees the light of day except when the house door is opened.
The idea of leaving the keys in the car will be totally mad to most people.
 

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Personally I would be reluctant to give up carrying my fob and other keys in my pocket throughout the day, never sees the light of day except when the house door is opened.
The idea of leaving the keys in the car will be totally mad to most people.
It's only meant to be used, when you drive to a forest, where you'll go running for an hour. You can then leave your heavy keys, which bill be bouncing up and down in your pocket when running. It's not pleasant to have a lot of objects on you when running. I never run with keys, phone, money or anything. With the wristband you can leave all your valuable possessions in the car and go running (or whatever you do).
 

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Personally I would be reluctant to give up carrying my fob and other keys in my pocket throughout the day, never sees the light of day except when the house door is opened.
The idea of leaving the keys in the car will be totally mad to most people.
My key FOB is the only key I carry. The house has electronic combination locks. Some of my cars can be unlocked/started via phone, so if I take the phone I don't take the FOB.
 

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I never run with keys, phone, money or anything.
So, if you are running through the forest and break your leg or have a heart attack you die, because you don't run with your phone? Weird.

The only time I leave my phone in the car is if I'm surfing or doing another more radical water sports, where losing the phone (even in a ziplock bag) is a definite possibility. The key FOB is unobtrusive and ease to secure in the water. If I were surfing alone (which I never do), I'd probably have the phone on me and leave the key FOB.
 

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So, if you are running through the forest and break your leg or have a heart attack you die, because you don't run with your phone? Weird.

The only time I leave my phone in the car is if I'm surfing or doing another more radical water sports, where losing the phone (even in a ziplock bag) is a definite possibility. The key FOB is unobtrusive and ease to secure in the water. If I were surfing alone (which I never do), I'd probably have the phone on me and leave the key FOB.
You know, it takes a lot of time to change old habits. I was rather late in carrying a mobile phone with me. In many ways I'm old-fashioned and conservative. Now I always bring my phone, when I'm riding my bike. The bike can also suffer a mechanical breakdown. But it took me many years to do so. Instead I have always brought my wallet or some kind of I.D. when riding my bike. Should something happen, I wanted my family to be informed as soon as possible, so they weren't worried about me. It's not pleasant to be brought into a hospital as an unknown person, while the family doesn't know, what has happened to you perhaps until the next day.
When I'm running, I'm not able to get very far away. No way will I be able to leave the area covered by our local hospital. I normally run in the town or in a park, where people are passing by all the time. And should they bring me to the hospital unconscious or something, I'm pretty sure, someone will recognize me. I have been a doctor there for almost 25 years. But of course, I may change my habit and start bringing a phone. I have actually been thinking about the safety aspect of it, as you mention. I always bring a phone on the bike. I just think, that when running in the summer wearing only shorts and a tee-shirt, a phone is rather unpleasant to haul along.
With bike, I of course mean a road racing bicycle with 20 speed, and not one of those with an engine ;-)
 

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So, if you are running through the forest and break your leg or have a heart attack you die, because you don't run with your phone? Weird.
Why a forest? Is it somehow more likely you'll be injured or suffer a heart attack while running in a forest?

You do realize that a phone is pretty much useless to summon assistance in the event the guy carrying the phone has a heart attack serious enough to require assistance. How much time do you think you have? In the forest?
 

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@Muenster

I was reacting to your comment: "It's only meant to be used, when you drive to a forest, where you'll go running for an hour."

So if the activity key is only meant to be used when you drive to a forest (which means away from roads, humans, etc) - that seems rather counter intuitive. That is probably the one place you'd want to have a phone with you (or a radio if out of cell coverage).

Anyway Ford has solved this problem decades ago and have electronic keypads on their car doors of many models (and virtually all SUVs). So you just key in your code and the car unlocks. Why Jaguar decided to invent yet another imperfect electronic gadget is beyond me.
 

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I was reacting to your comment: "It's only meant to be used, when you drive to a forest, where you'll go running for an hour."

So if the activity key is only meant to be used when you drive to a forest (which means away from roads, humans, etc) - that seems rather counter intuitive. That is probably the one place you'd want to have a phone with you (or a radio if out of cell coverage).

Anyway Ford has solved this problem decades ago and have electronic keypads on their car doors of many models (and virtually all SUVs). So you just key in your code and the car unlocks. Why Jaguar decided to invent yet another imperfect electronic gadget is beyond me.
My answer was for Pekem who seemed to think, you were supposed to use the activity band all the time and leave the keys in the car. I just wanted to tell him, that it is only meant to be used in certain situations. The forest was just the first thing, that came to my mind. It could be mountains, which we don't have here, or even the beach. The idea, at least as shown in commercials, is that when you go to do some exercise like running, kite surfing or mountain climbing, where you don't want to bring along keys and other more or less heavy and unnecessary stuff, you can use the activity key. I think the name even implies it. Often you wear clothing specially made for that specific activity where it can be difficult to bring too much along.

When I mentioned forest, running and phone, it was just examples of an activity, a place and an item you might want to leave behind. You can fill in your own preferred activity, place and item. These days a lot of people, if not most people, run with their phone in an armband and listen to music on their headphones. Many people also use the phone to track their activity and measure speed, distance and time.

I have seen those keypads on cars in the US. I have always thought, they look clumsy and like they have been put on the car after production. I actually thought, they were used on rental cars.
 

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But will your Ford also allow you to lock the keys inside the car? Many cars will not.
 

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Yank Automobile magazine nails this dog's dinner, and apparently, defying Motor Trend's and Baron95's tape measures, it's also a bit pokey in the back. Did JLR lie? Surely not.:

'Jaguar F-Pace
New to the luxury SUV fray, the F-Pace has an oddly unresolved feeling. Is it going for comfort or performance? Does it want to be a Lexus RX or a Porsche Macan? Its body has the right proportions, yet the tidy looks are more Mary Ann than Ginger. Doors slam with flimsy irresolution, and dynamic responses are also neither/nor. At first blush, the steering is light, brake pedal soft, and suspension underdamped. The 22-inch wheels suggest monster-truck intentions, but the F-Pace is tipsy and wobbly on just one slug of whatever fuels the Grave Digger. Slapped in the face, though, it sobers up and performs smartly. The same conflict is evident inside the cabin. It’s utterly conventional, yet the trimmings are quite nice throughout. This one had a plush headliner and wrapped pillars, a fine dashboard covering, and pleasant leather-upholstered seats with perforated inserts. The second row, however, was none too roomy. We think of the F-Pace as a territory that just received national status and will figure out a strong identity as it matures.'

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-automobile-all-stars-others/

Still, it's so bad, it has to be World Car of the Year 2017, like Obomber getting the Nobel Peace prize.
 

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Yank Automobile magazine nails this dog's dinner, and apparently, defying Motor Trend's and Baron95's tape measures, it's also a bit pokey in the back. Did JLR lie? Surely not.:

'Jaguar F-Pace
New to the luxury SUV fray, the F-Pace has an oddly unresolved feeling. Is it going for comfort or performance? Does it want to be a Lexus RX or a Porsche Macan? Its body has the right proportions, yet the tidy looks are more Mary Ann than Ginger. Doors slam with flimsy irresolution, and dynamic responses are also neither/nor. At first blush, the steering is light, brake pedal soft, and suspension underdamped. The 22-inch wheels suggest monster-truck intentions, but the F-Pace is tipsy and wobbly on just one slug of whatever fuels the Grave Digger. Slapped in the face, though, it sobers up and performs smartly. The same conflict is evident inside the cabin. It’s utterly conventional, yet the trimmings are quite nice throughout. This one had a plush headliner and wrapped pillars, a fine dashboard covering, and pleasant leather-upholstered seats with perforated inserts. The second row, however, was none too roomy. We think of the F-Pace as a territory that just received national status and will figure out a strong identity as it matures.'

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-automobile-all-stars-others/

Still, it's so bad, it has to be World Car of the Year 2017, like Obomber getting the Nobel Peace prize.
The text under the picture is a little nicer:

“As with the XE, the F-Pace offers the right blend of comfort and sport. It feels confident when pushed hard but doesn’t make sacrifices when you just want to amble around town.”
 

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RR Velar EuroNCAP tested before F-Pace that went onsale 15 months before it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz1x-GFI4ng

How much does JLR hate Jaguar, or rather how much does Tata see brand Range Rover as JLR's only hope of staying afloat, and Jaguar (and 'Land Rover') as a liability?

Of course 5* from Thatcham is like Donald Trump rating someone's integrity, as shown by the now usual problem of the FFRR/RR Sport/Disco 5/F-Pace/Velar/...Road Rover's top of the door detachment, to the naked eye at least severe damage caused by the side pole impact, the 60 km'h inter-urban automatic emergency braking test, when other European test centres now do 70 km/h, the non-avoidment of the pedestrian at moderate 30 mph(50 km/h) speed, and the wandering off-lane 'lane keeping', and still it scored near record for this category. #InYerFace
 
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