New Jaguar F-Type to be launched December 2nd
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  1. #1
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    New Jaguar F-Type to be launched December 2nd

    My son has just informed me, that Jaguar has send a tweet on Twitter, that the new F-Type will be launched on December 2nd. Who said, Jaguar wasn't making anything new?

    https://twitter.com/Jaguar/status/11...353472514?s=20
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    My son has just informed me, that Jaguar has send a tweet on Twitter, that the new F-Type will be launched on December 2nd. Who said, Jaguar wasn't making anything new?
    I did. The 'new F-type', as you know, is a facelift.

    A facelift of a 7 year old car - that was a bodge job of a then 7 year old car - the 2005 XK.

    The plan was to present the 'All-new/New F-type' in 2020, as shown by many car sites' info. until just last week.

    Due to the highlighting of JLR's non-activity, non-showing of the doesn't-exist 'eXJ' at LA/Guangzhou, the non-appearing of the promised in 'H2 2019' facelift XF, facelifted F-Pace, Ingenium I3, Ingenium I6 diesel, Evoque/E-Pace/DSport PHEV, etc, etc, by me here, JLR has pulled forward the F-Pace facelift launch, to allow people like you to say:

    'Ha! - JLR/Jaguar not dead'.

    The car will probably only be avalable mid 2020 or later, 2021MY, anyway.

    The obvious place to launch the F-type facelift was the LA motorshow - probably 30-40% of the F-type's real, fewer than 5k/yr global sales would be in California.

    The decision to launch the F-type facelift next week was made in the last few working days, following what was written here, on this forum, on the 'Does this look like success?' thread.

    The obvious car to pull forward was the XF facelift, as it's more mainstream, slightly higher volumes, and has been kicking around in camo etc for around a year.

    That car has been binned.

    To stop the talk here of 'No JLR activity'; 'JLR dead'; 'JLR packed up early for Xmas', etc, all they could pull forward, out of a hat, was the F-type facelift - an ultra-niche product - under 5k/yr global real sales.

    The obvious cars to show were the overdue XF facelift and the 'eXJ'.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    I did. The 'new F-type', as you know, is a facelift.

    A facelift of a 7 year old car - that was a bodge job of a then 7 year old car - the 2005 XK.

    The plan was to present the 'All-new/New F-type' in 2020, as shown by many car sites' info. until just last week.

    Due to the highlighting of JLR's non-activity, non-showing of the doesn't-exist 'eXJ' at LA/Guangzhou, the non-appearing of the promised in 'H2 2019' facelift XF, facelifted F-Pace, Ingenium I3, Ingenium I6 diesel, Evoque/E-Pace/DSport PHEV, etc, etc, by me here, JLR has pulled forward the F-Pace facelift launch, to allow people like you to say:

    'Ha! - JLR/Jaguar not dead'.
    Please don't think, I'm that gullible. I'm mostly being sarcastic and teasing you a little at the same time. I must admit, that when you popped up on this forum, I thought you were very negative and harsh, and I didn't really believe all you said. But as time has passed, and the promised cars and engines haven't materialized, I've come to realise, that you are right about JLR. They are not developing anything new. The competitors keep launching new cars and pulling ahead, while JLR is almost standing still. It is very sad for an old Jaguar fan like me to watch. The world has changed. Apart from the specific problems at JLR's, it has become almost impossible to survive as a small carmaker. In the heydays of Jaguar, a handful of talented men could design a car, that would be exceptionel, which could even win the 24 hours at Le Mans. These days it takes an army of experts to design a car, and that is very expensive.
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Please don't think, I'm that gullible. I'm mostly being sarcastic and teasing you a little at the same time. I must admit, that when you popped up on this forum, I thought you were very negative and harsh, and I didn't really believe all you said. But as time has passed, and the promised cars and engines haven't materialized, I've come to realise, that you are right about JLR. They are not developing anything new. The competitors keep launching new cars and pulling ahead, while JLR is almost standing still. It is very sad for an old Jaguar fan like me to watch. The world has changed. Apart from the specific problems at JLR's, it has become almost impossible to survive as a small carmaker. In the heydays of Jaguar, a handful of talented men could design a car, that would be exceptionel, which could even win the 24 hours at Le Mans. These days it takes an army of experts to design a car, and that is very expensive.
    Unfortunately, stuff like the current 'Le Mans 66'/'Ford v Ferrari' film still push this notion of the plucky amateur - Brits/Yanks - triumphing over arrogant, aristo European types.

    We get the same narrative from the media - anglo UK/US media - about the success of Formula 1 in the UK, and the eternal puzzle of why UK can't replicate this world-beating success with its mass production auto industry.

    Of course, without the huge investments of the likes of Daimler AG currently, or BMW, Ford, Honda etc before, there would be no 'Motorsport/F1 Valley' around Silverstone.

    VAG's Audi and Porsche showed how they could dominate Le Mans/WEC like a tap, due to huge money, engineering expertise and professionalism, and then leave as quickly as they dominated.

    They, the Germans, are now doing the same with Formula-E.

    They do this because to them it's what life is about. The money that in UK(London) and US(NYC/LA) goes into 'Finance'/'FIRE', and the 'talented' individuals that follow it, in European countries goes into making things, from Swiss watches, to German cars, to French wine and cheeses.

    UK motorsport's post-war domination came from the mass of wartime airfields - Silverstone etc - and a largely idle upper class, who had the time and money to do it, and a Europe that was more concerned with literally rebuilding their destroyed cities, and getting industry going again.

    Once that 20 years or so window closed, it was back to normal - European domination - with the Ford/Ferrari Le Mans 66 thing the end of, last hurrah of this era.

    UK was always about Land - owning it and extracting maximum wealth from it. The Industrial Revolution was an aberration and Cinderella with order now fully restored, with central London, the Duke of Westminster, the Queen etc, worth more than 99% of the land mass, except some Scottish estates, which are owned by the same people, Balmoral, Duke of Argyll etc.

    Large-scale industry in the UK is a dead loss. The rest of the population now ape these 'elites', and see land/property as UK's only sure way to have a decent, financially secure life, which is anthema to mass production, due to the cost burden.

    UK is Singapore/Monaco, London/The City the only part of a 70 million population country that has a point.

    This has been going on since at least 1945, when the tensions between an industrial country and a land-owning feudal country were laid bare by nationalisation, which was undone completely from the 1980s - the ancient order restored.

    JLR is just collateral damage in this context. It's now an anachronism, with a few streets, houses in Belgravia worth more than JLR even in its 2013 heyday.

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Please don't think, I'm that gullible. I'm mostly being sarcastic and teasing you a little at the same time. I must admit, that when you popped up on this forum, I thought you were very negative and harsh, and I didn't really believe all you said. But as time has passed, and the promised cars and engines haven't materialized, I've come to realise, that you are right about JLR. They are not developing anything new. The competitors keep launching new cars and pulling ahead, while JLR is almost standing still. It is very sad for an old Jaguar fan like me to watch. The world has changed. Apart from the specific problems at JLR's, it has become almost impossible to survive as a small carmaker. In the heydays of Jaguar, a handful of talented men could design a car, that would be exceptionel, which could even win the 24 hours at Le Mans. These days it takes an army of experts to design a car, and that is very expensive.
    In all fairness this year they've had:
    New Evoque
    New Discovery Sport
    New XE
    New HST RR/RRS - new engine
    I-Pace in decent volumes
    F-Pace SVR
    Velar SVA
    Defender released for ordering

    I'd suspect F-Type coming forward has more to do with dwindling supply of P380/P340 engines than much else.

  8. #6
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    The IPace may be achieving decent volumes but are they actually selling.
    Checkout the stock on Auto trader U.K. and read this view of the position in America.
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/insid...s-low-why/amp/

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag SM View Post
    In all fairness this year they've had:
    New Evoque
    New Discovery Sport
    New XE
    New HST RR/RRS - new engine
    I-Pace in decent volumes
    F-Pace SVR
    Velar SVA
    Defender released for ordering

    I'd suspect F-Type coming forward has more to do with dwindling supply of P380/P340 engines than much else.
    I like how you are always positive. There is quite a lot negativity surrounding JLR. At least in this forum

    I still don't think, it's a lot. Most of those vehicles are only new versions of existing cars. The XE is a light facelift. The interior has been changed a lot, but mostly using parts from other JLR cars. And according to at least one observer here, it is debatable whether the Evoque and the Discovery Sport are really new cars.

    I have tried to look at the very exhaustive website NetCarShow, where they list all new cars. That is my go-to place, when I want to see, what's new in the automotive world.

    https://www.netcarshow.com

    If we have a look at how many models different car manufactures have for this and next year, we get the numbers below. I know, we can discuss, when a car is a separate model. Some cars are only special versions. Land Rover has the Defender 90 and 110 listed at two separate cars. But I think we get a good estimate by looking at the number of new models for each year:

    Jaguar
    2019: 5 (of which only the I-Pace is a completely new car)
    2020: 1 (a relatively light facelift of the XE)

    Land Rover
    2019: 3
    2020: 5 (again mostly special versions of existing cars like SVA, HST and Sentinel)

    Let's then look at the competition:

    Mercedes-Benz
    2019: 39
    2020: 37
    2021: 3

    BMW
    2019: 36
    2020: 27

    Audi
    2019: 27
    2020: 37
    2021: 1

    Porsche
    2019: 20
    2020: 11

    Of course a lot of those entries are also special versions of existing cars. And of course JLR is a much smaller company. Still there is a huge difference. Only one Jaguar for 2020. A facelift of the XE. Allright, the interior is nice now. But what it really need is new drivelines. Better engines. An XE-R or S with a six cylinder or a V8 even. And hybrid versions. Preferably PHEV versions.
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    I like how you are always positive. There is quite a lot negativity surrounding JLR. At least in this forum

    I still don't think, it's a lot. Most of those vehicles are only new versions of existing cars. The XE is a light facelift. The interior has been changed a lot, but mostly using parts from other JLR cars. And according to at least one observer here, it is debatable whether the Evoque and the Discovery Sport are really new cars.

    I have tried to look at the very exhaustive website NetCarShow, where they list all new cars. That is my go-to place, when I want to see, what's new in the automotive world.

    https://www.netcarshow.com

    If we have a look at how many models different car manufactures have for this and next year, we get the numbers below. I know, we can discuss, when a car is a separate model. Some cars are only special versions. Land Rover has the Defender 90 and 110 listed at two separate cars. But I think we get a good estimate by looking at the number of new models for each year:

    Jaguar
    2019: 5 (of which only the I-Pace is a completely new car)
    2020: 1 (a relatively light facelift of the XE)

    Land Rover
    2019: 3
    2020: 5 (again mostly special versions of existing cars like SVA, HST and Sentinel)

    Let's then look at the competition:

    Mercedes-Benz
    2019: 39
    2020: 37
    2021: 3

    BMW
    2019: 36
    2020: 27

    Audi
    2019: 27
    2020: 37
    2021: 1

    Porsche
    2019: 20
    2020: 11

    Of course a lot of those entries are also special versions of existing cars. And of course JLR is a much smaller company. Still there is a huge difference. Only one Jaguar for 2020. A facelift of the XE. Allright, the interior is nice now. But what it really need is new drivelines. Better engines. An XE-R or S with a six cylinder or a V8 even. And hybrid versions. Preferably PHEV versions.
    I get that but the real data for these new cars is in private registrations
    X5 good but rejection nightmare
    XE ok
    Q8 complete flop
    GLE/GLS OK
    3 series complete flop
    T-Cross OK but it is just a polo dune really
    911 very good
    I-Pace if counted as it was supposed to come out last year very good - way ahead of 911 and ahead of x5
    A6 - think it came this year - good

    Obviously I can't share the actual data but JLR has about 40% market share if you combine both brands of luxury car sales in the UK registered directly to a private user - ie not cheap contract hire or company car

  11. #9
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    And back to planet Earth.

    The 'NEW' F-type has broken cover, or should that be the 'New 1994 Mazda/Xedos'





    https://www.germancarforum.com/threa...e.57566/page-2

    Once again, in trying to con dummies that it has something 'new', JLR has made what was a moderately interesting, sales-irrelevant old car, worse, as McGovern did with 'his masterpiece', the Evoque, which now looks utterly bland, compared to the Tonka Toy 2011 original.

    The 'New F-type' looks like something from 20 years ago, which of course it is, its bones from the 2003 XJ X350, which would have been kicked off by Ford/Jaguar in the mid to late 90s.

    But this facelift has taken Callum's 2012 'original' and made it look older, dowdier, taking away any aggression, with its enormous gaping grille, and headlights that look nothing like the F-type's supposed inspiration, the E-type, which the 2012's obviously tried to do, with the vertical rather than this horizontal look, and now look completely generic, like one of those 'insurance cars', where a Mondeo or similar is changed to make it brand-indefinite.

    Of course the paid JLR shills will orgasm over it, saying how 'it has transformed the car', and made it 'more desirable than the boring 911' and so on.

    They've even ruined the rear lights, with the semi-circular 'dip', referring to the E-type's small round taillights, gone, with now this dropped line thing, which refers to what?

    The 'New F-type' is Jaguar's Evoque 'II' - blandified, ruined, for the sake of saying they have something new.

    Callum's best work was done when he was in his 30s/40s, as is the case with nearly all designers - old enough to be experienced, confident, young enough to not be unreceptive to new ideas, eyesight not failing, and not rehashing your best work, over and over, when the market has moved on, one or two decades.

    This 'sign-off' from Callum is just that, his channelling of his Ford group days, the early to mid 90s especially, when Japanese Mazda was setting subliminally the tone for the whole group, with Mazda 'zooming up' - remember the ads/slogans? - and their slinky, avant garde-ish design 'language' setting the pace for the whole industry.

    Now, on this 2020 F-type, it looks sad and old, like a 15 year old dog with cosmetic surgery, that should have been put down.

    Sums up Jaguar and JLR basically.
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 30-11-19 at 10:16.

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    And back to planet Earth.

    The 'NEW' F-type has broken cover, or should that be the 'New 1994 Mazda/Xedos'





    https://www.germancarforum.com/threa...e.57566/page-2

    Once again, in trying to con dummies that it has something 'new', JLR has made what was a moderately interesting, sales-irrelevant old car, worse, as McGovern did with 'his masterpiece', the Evoque, which now looks utterly bland, compared to the Tonka Toy 2011 original.

    The 'New F-type' looks like something from 20 years ago, which of course it is, its bones from the 2003 XJ X350, which would have been kicked off by Ford/Jaguar in the mid to late 90s.

    But this facelift has taken Callum's 2012 'original' and made it look older, dowdier, taking away any aggression, with its enormous gaping grille, and headlights that look nothing like the F-type's supposed inspiration, the E-type, which the 2012's obviously tried to do, with the vertical rather than this horizontal look, and now look completely generic, like one of those 'insurance cars', where a Mondeo or similar is changed to make it brand-indefinite.

    Of course the paid JLR shills will orgasm over it, saying how 'it has transformed the car', and made it 'more desirable than the boring 911' and so on.

    They've even ruined the rear lights, with the semi-circular 'dip', referring to the E-type's small round taillights, gone, with now this dropped line thing, which refers to what?

    The 'New F-type' is Jaguar's Evoque 'II' - blandified, ruined, for the sake of saying they have something new.

    Callum's best work was done when he was in his 30s/40s, as is the case with nearly all designers - old enough to be experienced, confident, young enough to not be unreceptive to new ideas, eyesight not failing, and not rehashing your best work, over and over, when the market has moved on, one or two decades.

    This 'sign-off' from Callum is just that, his channelling of his Ford group days, the early to mid 90s especially, when Japanese Mazda was setting subliminally the tone for the whole group, with Mazda 'zooming up' - remember the ads/slogans? - and their slinky, avant garde-ish design 'language' setting the pace for the whole industry.

    Now, on this 2020 F-type, it looks sad and old, like a 15 year old dog with cosmetic surgery, that should have been put down.

    Sums up Jaguar and JLR basically.
    Lets see your new design for a car that meets international legislation and doesn't look like everything else on the road. The original made massive compromises to get it's looks, suspension, legroom, storage etc. I'd love to see how the armchair enthusiast like you will bring something to market that looks different and stunning but also delivers in every other area.

 

 

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