Was it too early for the I-Pace ? - Page 159
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  1. #1581
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    Price matters.

    Tesla/Tesla fanboys/Tesla lunatics/Tesla-paid media 'journalists' tried to convince the feeble of mind over the last several years that price doesn't matter, just cult status: Tesla + EV + Messiah leader = price irrelevance/licence to print money.

    This 'new paradigm', 'disruption', was about saving the planet, upon which you couldn't put a price, right?

    So $70, 80, 100k+ for a bog standard milk float was a bargain in the greater scheme of things, where salving one's conscience and the all-mportant virtue signalling to one's peers was all that now mattered.

    And then came reality: Musk ran out out of idiots.

    The world is not full of HNWIs, with enough disposable income to drop up to $100k on a toy.

    So, after Tesla is four-fifths of its way to crashing and burning, even after the billions in US taxpayers subs, we get this:

    https://blog.mercedes-benz-passion.c...71-281-euro-i/

    - that's the Mercedes EQC gone on sale today in Germany for €71,281. Why the odd price?

    Because, that price is the with-VAT price, which in Germany is 19%, not the 20% here in UK.

    So what is €71,281 minus 19% VAT? Answer: €59,900.

    Why is this important? Because, in Germany subsidy to buy an EV, from the German taxpayer, is only available to cars costing less than... €60,000.

    Ta dah! Daimler has priced the new 'planet saving', paradigm changing', 'disrupting' blah, blah EV, as if it was a price sensitive ICE, a fairly luxurious medium SUV, akin to a loaded GLC.

    The subsidy for <€60k EVs in Germany is €4,000.

    That puts the taxpayer subsidised base 'EQC 400' at €71,281 - €4,000 = €67, 281.

    A large sum(around £58k), but over €10k cheaper than a base I-Pace at €78,240.

    Price matters.

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  3. #1582
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    There maybe a clue in this thread emanating from Norway regarding the lack of over the air updates for the iPace, a feature that was trailed from the outset.


    https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/viewto...p=21645#p21645

    I can imagine that Jaguar will feel that they have trodden on a nail when dealing with the Norwegians.

    Add those difficulties to the warranty issues being dealt with at what I learn from an impeccable source that warranty claims via dealers worldwide is costing JLR £ 1 million a week !

  4. #1583
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekem View Post
    So is it battery supply or charging infrastructure that he is blaming ?
    - this is old and fake news.

    InsideEVs' 'news' is this:

    https://europe.autonews.com/automake...s-revival-plan

    The Jaguar I-Pace, which costs at least 78,000 euros, has been the object of considerable praise, but it has hardly any visibility in Germany. Does that hurt?
    The I-Pace has received many awards, including the 2019 European Car of the Year. In fact, availability is tight in Germany and throughout the world.

    Why is that?
    When it comes to electric vehicles, the question isn’t how many cars I can build but rather how many batteries I can buy. The demand for batteries is so great that there will be a limited ability to deliver them over the next few years. And, unlike some others, I expect continually rising battery prices – at least for the next two to three years.
    - which is the English version of a German interview by Automobilwoche, done a month ago - first in print, then available online at automobilwoche.com, but behind registration/paywalled.

    Speth was lying, as shown, over and over and over... , by the huge numbers of I-Paces piling up at US, UK, Dutch, German etc dealerships, when the clown expects people to believe it's in short supply due to battery supply.

    You don't offer thousands off, tens of thousands off 'ex-demo', 'ex-management' etc handful of miles 'secondhand' cars that are supposed to be 'It', European, World etc car of the year, and when supply is tight.

    This is weapons grade chutzpah from Speth, a nasty clown, who knows he has just months to go before he's out and clear.

    InsideEVs/Motor1 is the new Autocar/Haymarket - nauseating propaganda/lies for JLR. There are links:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorsport_Network

    Motorsport Network acquired its major competitor, the Haymarket Publishing portfolio of motor racing brands,
    InsideEVs was bought by 'Motor1.com' 2 years back:

    https://www.motor1.com/news/134778/m...res-insideevs/

    InsideEVs was garbage anyway, a transprent pusher for Tesla and JLR, but since its redo a couple of weeks a go - a cheapo common template with Motor1 - it's now ultra tacky and a pusher fest for JLR, above Tesla.

    Guess we know who now calls the shots - JLR paying Motosport Network/Zak Brown, to try to save the I-Pace and push associated Formula E and I-Pace 'racing' thing - and the seeming pull out of Haymarket Media from the JLR millstone, seeing the writing on the wall, requiring a new lead paid propagandist media group.

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  6. #1584
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekem View Post
    There maybe a clue in this thread emanating from Norway regarding the lack of over the air updates for the iPace, a feature that was trailed from the outset.


    https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/viewto...p=21645#p21645

    I can imagine that Jaguar will feel that they have trodden on a nail when dealing with the Norwegians.

    Add those difficulties to the warranty issues being dealt with at what I learn from an impeccable source that warranty claims via dealers worldwide is costing JLR £ 1 million a week !
    Put a nought on that and it may be somewhere near reality.

    JLR have a about a million cars in the field within 3 years warranty, 4/5 years in the States, with at least a third going wrong, at least once a year. Say half a million dealer 'events' each year, at around £500 chargeable to JLR, and you see £50m/yr is a joke - at least five times that, probably closer to £500m/yr.

    But, the big story today on the I-Pace front, is the nearly €11k cheaper Mercedes EQC, now onsale.

    It's at least as fast as the I-Pace, will have similar range in practice from its around 80 kWh battery, given its a narrower, smaller car - based on the C/E-class architecture, not a full-fat Range Rover, with much better aerodynamics - has 110 kW fast charging, and the build quality of a Bremen factory Merc - generally excellent.

    The I-Pace has just been given its Last Rites.

    Speth doesn't give a flying f***. He'll be gone in a few months, or sacked and paid off beforehand.

    He doesn't care that he's a left a sh!tshow behind him, the I-Pace the worst of it all.

    JLR is the Man United of the car world, and the I-Pace the Paul Pogba. A puffed up, fake car company pretending, claiming to be world class - WCotY etc - when in truth it's Conference League, at best, but so many w*nkers still have a finger in the rotting pie that they won't, can't let it go, the whole thing dragging them all down.
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 06-05-19 at 11:27. Reason: typos

  7. #1585
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    All there legacy manufacturers and their fan boys claimed that they'd be easily able to copy Tesla whenever they wanted, are just finding out how behind they are.

    Be is Over-the-Air-Updates, self-driving, charging infrastructure, securing low-cost battery supply, cost/performance-optimized motors, and even safety where Tesla is head and shoulders above the rest of the world, they are in for a rude awakening.

    Of course, the biggest challenge of them all, is having to inflict the pain of having to deal with unprepared, under-trained, under-funded independent dealers for everything.
    Hailing from: New England, USA
    Jaguar XF Ownership History: 2009 XF-SC(SV8), 2010 XFR, 2012 V8 Portfolio
    Looking For: Good Handling/Light Jaguar Sports Car and Off-Road Capable Land Rover

  8. #1586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron95 View Post
    All there legacy manufacturers and their fan boys claimed that they'd be easily able to copy Tesla whenever they wanted, are just finding out how behind they are.

    Be is Over-the-Air-Updates, self-driving, charging infrastructure, securing low-cost battery supply, cost/performance-optimized motors, and even safety where Tesla is head and shoulders above the rest of the world, they are in for a rude awakening.

    Of course, the biggest challenge of them all, is having to inflict the pain of having to deal with unprepared, under-trained, under-funded independent dealers for everything.
    You're projecting onto others what only belongs to JLR. Your legacy makers are really just one rogue entity.

    You should look at what Audi has done alone for its dealers on the e-tron - huge spend and effort.

    Dealerships can be a plus, if, like anything, they are invested in and planned for a long term.

    JLR saw dealership support as a cost drain, therefore hampering the management's bonuses in the good times, 2012-2015, and now a drag on getting the company away, by beautifying the balance sheet, with all spending and costs cut to the bone.

    Even if the I-Pace had been a half decent product, it never stood a chance, due to Tata's and Speth's team's robbing of the company and planning of a swift exit.

    It was John Egan's Jaguar Cars and BAe's Rover Group on stilts - planned swift exits and personal enrichment for the top management.

  9. #1587
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekem View Post
    Add those difficulties to the warranty issues being dealt with at what I learn from an impeccable source that warranty claims via dealers worldwide is costing JLR £ 1 million a week !
    (he also said that land rovers are currently averaging 4.8 trips back to dealernin year 1 )
    https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1585

    - total disgrace - British Leyland on acid, and no Red Robbo in sight to blame it all on.

    Real Warranty bill for JLR globally must be running at at least £1 billion a year.

    Not a word of course of this in the media. No consumer advice from the likes of 'Honest' John, no campaign in the rag The Daly Mail to get these garbage products off the road, no high visibility on the BBC's Watchdog or Top Gear, telling petrolheads globally to give these jokes a swerve, etc.

    At least in the Soviet Union the people knew their national champions, Lada and so on, were jokes, but the Brits still believe they have a golden goose, laying golden eggs, of which the whole world is envious.

    This of course is why the Bombay street merchants are getting rid of JLR. They've taken all the profit out, courtesy of zero investment after 11 years, employing cheapest, temp, agency staff to make £100k vehicles, plundered the pensions, and left it worse than BL in the 70s, but the media screams 'world beater', 'rapturously received', etc.

    Funny old world.

  10. #1588
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    er, Bentley Bentayga is MLB-evo, as you will know, or perhaps would know, iif you are what you claim - a VW/VAG 'expert'.

    A £75k S Q7 is a half price Bentayga, the e-tron more so, with at least Bentley levels of plushness - courtesy of the 2.6 tonnes weight - interior noise level, refinement and so on, plus much, much better residuals - bargain of the decade, at least.
    A Bentley is a bespoke hand built vehicle using luxury materials, comparing it to a mass produced Audi based on the same tech is missing the point. It isn't an Audi or VW just like a Rolls Royce isn't a BMW.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    again, your supposed VW knowledge is a joke. The ID launches for orders this Wednesday(May 8th). 'Concept' was about 3 years ago.

    The ID and its kin and siblings will be okay, enough to make Tesla history and VW, once again, the colossus of the car world.

    The volume car industy, if you're serious and want to be around for more than 5-10 years, is about cost control. Ford of Europe's heyday in the 70s and 80s was built on ruthless cost control, not product.

    VW are the masters of this, and that is why the ID will be functional, adequate, and nothing more.

    Only VW can square the circle of EV and profitability. But they'll do that through offering the bare minumum.
    There are no production units yet, so its not out of concept yet. When they start making the actual car that's when it'll be a real product. As you haven't seen it, sat in it, driven it your analysis means nothing. I suspect that a RWD Golf sized car with a decent battery should be quite good fun.

  11. #1589
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    VW has no hope of being profitable with EVs anytime soon, and they are not claiming that at all. Quite the contrary, they keep on touting how they are investing over $25B in electrification. At a typical $1,000/vehicle VW-brand profit, they'd need to sell over 25,000,000 EVs before recouping their investment. But of course they can't, because there is not enough cobalt in the world to allow that to happen give the battery technology that VW is planing to use.

    VW is against a hard corner, and there may not be a way out.
    Hailing from: New England, USA
    Jaguar XF Ownership History: 2009 XF-SC(SV8), 2010 XFR, 2012 V8 Portfolio
    Looking For: Good Handling/Light Jaguar Sports Car and Off-Road Capable Land Rover

  12. #1590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag SM View Post
    A Bentley is a bespoke hand built vehicle using luxury materials, comparing it to a mass produced Audi based on the same tech is missing the point. It isn't an Audi or VW just like a Rolls Royce isn't a BMW.
    Dear, oh dear. The 'hand-built' Bentayga is built in VW Zwickau, before that VW Bratislava, as you'll no doubt know, being a VAG expert.

    It's trimmed in Crewe, from parts kits from Germany; its now more common V8 from VAG Gyor Hungary.

    The Roller is the same, worse in a way, with no engine op in Goodwood. Both are window dressing for English authenticity.

 

 

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