Jaguar F Pace wins World Car of the Year - Page 4
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Thank you for the summary. I'll try to buy the magazine tomorrow after my 24 hours shift. From the page you link to is seems, the F-Pace is actually no. 3 in front of Macan,
    - "Eigenschaftswertung" - F-Pace last. They frigged the Costs section - pinged the Macan -10 points on price and just +1 point for resale value, plus some other nonsense to get the F-Pace to 3rd in the final costs-included ranking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    the F-Pace scores quite well on "economy".
    - that's because the F-Pace is down 50-60PS on the GLC and Macan. 240PS, AWD, a ZF auto and ~1.95 tonnes does not give 8.6 seconds for 0-100km/h and 33 seconds for 0-180 km/h. ~200PS and 400Nm(optimistically) does.

    Would you pay €60k basic for a 4-pot producing similar to a mono-turbo GLC 220d or D4 XC60, costing around €15k less?

    AMuS have unwittingly exposed the real problem of the F-Pace, and of course the 240PS 4-pot diesel versions of the Disco 5 and Velar, priced up to £75k in the UK - the engine is massively overstated in its output.

    I think 10% variance is permitted in Germany under consumer protection law, which would give 216PS, but not ~200PS obviously.

    Anyone with a bi-turbo Ingenium car already should think about having ADAC if a member investigate, as they appear to have been mis-sold.

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  3. #32
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    Want confirmation that the twin-turbo Ingenium diesel is overstated, by around 20%?

    Car&Driver has just tested an Audi Q7, a larger and heavier car than the F-Pace tested by AMuS:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...0t-test-review

    - over 200kg heavier.

    But, the Q7 has similar power - 252PS - 5% more than the 240PS F-Pace 25d, and a lot less torque - 273 v 369 lb.ft.

    Both have 8-speed autos, the F-Pace's arguably even better than the Q7's Aisin one, and both cars have all-wheel drive.

    And yet the Q7 gets from 0-60 mph in 7 seconds flat, compared to 0-62 mph in 8.6 seconds for the F-Pace.

    Even if we're generous, and knock 0.5 seconds off, the F-Pace is around a second slower to 60 mph than the bigger, heavier, less torque Q7.

    The Q7 also gets to 120 mph in less time than it takes the F-Pace to get to 180 km/h(112 mph) - 31.1 v 32.8 seconds.

    How can this be?

    Simple, the Q7 is either massively understated, which it's not, or the F-Pace is massively overstated.

    240PS/500Nm official for the Ingenium twin-turbo diesel, is in reality 200PS/400Nm maximum.

    That is grounds for contravention of UK Sales of Goods Act and Germany's consumer protection law, where the vehicle's power has to be within a certain tolerance, 10% max. from memory, or the buyer is entitled to a full refund.

    Ingenium is a disaster, not just for NOx, but now almost certainly for intentional? overstatement of output.

    A decent, normal company would see its CEO and probably head technical officer resign, before being pushed, to try to salvage a PR disaster, and distance themselves from a possible wrongdoing conspiracy lawsuit/criminal fraud case, to cheat buyers.
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 19-08-17 at 09:36.

  4. #33
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    There are no awful cars (other than Toyotas) sold in competitive markets anymore. Any of the vehicles above would make their owners very happy. For my tastes I'd take the Macan or the F-Pace, never the Volvo, maybe the GLC. Others would have a different order, but all are good vehicles and all are doing well in the market.
    Hailing from: New England, USA
    Jaguar XF Ownership History: 2009 XF-SC(SV8), 2010 XFR, 2012 V8 Portfolio
    Looking For: Good Handling/Light Jaguar Sports Car and Off-Road Capable Land Rover

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron95 View Post
    There are no awful cars (other than Toyotas) sold in competitive markets anymore. Any of the vehicles above would make their owners very happy. For my tastes I'd take the Macan or the F-Pace, never the Volvo, maybe the GLC. Others would have a different order, but all are good vehicles and all are doing well in the market.
    That reminds me: A few decades ago in the seventies and eighties, cheap cars from Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union like Skoda (remember those with rear engine?) and Lada (the old Fiat cars made in Russia) were quite popular here in Denmark, due to the high car taxes making cars very expensive. Towards the end of that period, Lada released a new model. It got terrible reviews. The Danish Motor Owners' Association warned against buying it. They suggested people used the same money to buy a used car.

    The importer of Lada cars was interviewed in the news about this. His answer was, that they had many satisfied costumers. They had talked to numerous happy owners of the new Lada model. And I actually believe, that was true. Their costumers were used to driving a Lada, and the new model was no doubt better than the old. In the same way, if I was to drive an F-Pace, I would probably find it to be a wonderful car. And since I like the brand, the image, the history and all that, what do I care, if the competitors are a little faster, quieter, softer over rough road, have more room in the rear and so on? And in the end, the F-Pace is a very good car. As you say, there aren't really any bad cars on the market today.
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

  7. #35
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    You would only care if you regular take your cars to the limit. If you buy and SUV or truck because you want the off-road capabilities to go over rocks, mud, water etc, or you buy a sports car to track regularly, then you should care.

    Else, just enjoy the brands you like and have fun. And need buy a Toyota.
    Hailing from: New England, USA
    Jaguar XF Ownership History: 2009 XF-SC(SV8), 2010 XFR, 2012 V8 Portfolio
    Looking For: Good Handling/Light Jaguar Sports Car and Off-Road Capable Land Rover

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    That reminds me: A few decades ago in the seventies and eighties, cheap cars from Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union like Skoda (remember those with rear engine?) and Lada (the old Fiat cars made in Russia) were quite popular here in Denmark, due to the high car taxes making cars very expensive. Towards the end of that period, Lada released a new model. It got terrible reviews. The Danish Motor Owners' Association warned against buying it. They suggested people used the same money to buy a used car.
    - it was the Lada Samara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Samara

    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    In the same way, if I was to drive an F-Pace, I would probably find it to be a wonderful car. And since I like the brand, the image, the history and all that, what do I care, if the competitors are a little faster, quieter, softer over rough road, have more room in the rear and so on? And in the end, the F-Pace is a very good car. As you say, there aren't really any bad cars on the market today.
    This is classic 'fanboyism'. I'm not just picking on Jaguar fans. Each brand, even Lada, will have its diehards. That's not the point. To be a volume maker, 2-300,000 units/yr for Jaguar, you have to convince a lot of rational people to part with their money, not just buy the brand.

    A 4-pot F-Pace for €60k doesn't compete with a V6, air-suspended Macan for €61k. How hard is that to understand?

    Add in the truly awful Ingenium, the joke ICTP infotainment, the noise, both engine and wind from poorly fitting doors, the ride, the build quality, etc, and the unavoidable outcome is, excepting the 1-2% diehards who will pay full or near full price, a real price for the 25d F-Pace of around €50k.

    So you can argue till you're blue in the face that there is no poor car in today's market, but the market says otherwise, with the Macan getting near 100% residual still, after 3 years on the market, and a facelift coming the end of this year, and the F-Pace being discounted for 10-15%, and this will rise to 20% shortly, as overproduction builds up stock, and word gets out how poor and overpriced the diesel in particular is.

  9. #37
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    BMVIrep is correct in saying that a 4-pot F-Pace doesn't compete, but then no 4-pot F-Pace costs €60k!!!! Here in the UK and in Germany, €60k will get you a 3.0 V6 (diesel or S/C petrol) with Dynamic Suspension (as long as you avoid the over-priced First Edition model):

    https://www.jaguar.de/jaguar-modelle/f-pace/index.html

    F-Paces start at €43560!!

    2016 XFS, 3.0 S/C Petrol,
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    Previously: 2015MY PL 3.0DS, Polaris White, Black Interior; 2012MY PL 3.0DS Stratus Grey, Ivory Interior; 2010MY Portfolio 3.0D Vapour Grey, Ivory Interior.

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    I do actually think, it was later. I think it was the Lada 110 (VAZ-2110). The Lada Samara was a quite popular car not only here in Denmark. When it was launched, the world wasn't so occupied with emission and catalysts, Euro norms and so on. Safety standards with crash tests and equipment like airbags and ABS-brakes didn't exist either, at least not in normal cars. I am aware, that those were invented decades before. So apart from the quality, you couldn't pinpoint specific shortcomings of the Samara. My in-laws had one, which we borrowed for half a year after I came back from military service. It was a flimsy car and everything you touched was of a terrible quality. Some buttons were very tight. Other identical looking buttons were very loose. And yet the Samara also seemed very s****y and was quite reliable. I remember in 1992 our family came back from a holiday in Rome, Italy. My father's Jaguar XJ couldn't start. My sister's boyfriend's Ford Scorpio company car couldn't start. The batteries were discharged probably due to all the electronics like the alarmsystem. And those were quite new cars. But the faithful Lada Samara started without a problem and could help the luxury cars start with a cable. And boy, did it have a heater! The Lada were apparently made for driving through the Tundra in extremely low temperatures, so the heating system was very powerful. Unfortunately it was hard to adjust it to a comfortable temperature on a longer journey, were both you feet and your head were comfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    This is classic 'fanboyism'. I'm not just picking on Jaguar fans. Each brand, even Lada, will have its diehards. That's not the point. To be a volume maker, 2-300,000 units/yr for Jaguar, you have to convince a lot of rational people to part with their money, not just buy the brand.

    A 4-pot F-Pace for €60k doesn't compete with a V6, air-suspended Macan for €61k. How hard is that to understand?

    Add in the truly awful Ingenium, the joke ICTP infotainment, the noise, both engine and wind from poorly fitting doors, the ride, the build quality, etc, and the unavoidable outcome is, excepting the 1-2% diehards who will pay full or near full price, a real price for the 25d F-Pace of around €50k.

    So you can argue till you're blue in the face that there is no poor car in today's market, but the market says otherwise, with the Macan getting near 100% residual still, after 3 years on the market, and a facelift coming the end of this year, and the F-Pace being discounted for 10-15%, and this will rise to 20% shortly, as overproduction builds up stock, and word gets out how poor and overpriced the diesel in particular is.
    Don't be such a diplomat. There's no reason to hold anything back. You don't have to handle us with kid gloves. Why don't you just say things as they are and rub our noses in it?
    I must say, your views really come across. I can't decide, whether you are exaggerating wildly, or whether it is simply the case, that the truth hurts. I often ask myself: How much do people really know about cars? Most people are not enthusiastic and read reviews and all. Of course, the cheaper and more utilitarian the car, the fewer enthusiasts. But even expensive cars are often bought by people, who just like the look or the image. My father always drove Jaguar and wore tailormade suits, because he liked the British lifestyle. My brother-in-law has a Tesla Model S, which is an expensive car. I'm pretty sure, he doesn't read car magazines and study the car market. He has just heard about the Tesla, which has become quite fashionable, and at the same time makes people think, they are doing something good for the world. If this is the case, good looks and a fancy image are more important than how the car really performs. Unless of course it is horrible.

    On the other hand, you do really have a point about the market. Why do so few people buy Jaguars? Why do people keep buying the German brands (and now the Swedish too)? Perhaps people do know more about cars, than I think. Perhaps the word goes around about good and bad cars more than I think. It's strange, because when people hear, I have a Jaguar, they are wildly impressed. They all want to see and admire it and perhaps have a ride. I admit, most people I know are not exactly car enthusiasts. But still. If Jaguar has such an image, why don't more people buy it? Whether we believe the official sales numbers or not, the sales numbers of Jaguar are still tiny compared to the sales of BMW, Mercedes and Volvo. Even if we only look at the expensive models competing with Jaguar.
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamS View Post
    BMVIrep is correct in saying that a 4-pot F-Pace doesn't compete, but then no 4-pot F-Pace costs €60k!!!! Here in the UK and in Germany, €60k will get you a 3.0 V6 (diesel or S/C petrol) with Dynamic Suspension (as long as you avoid the over-priced First Edition model):

    https://www.jaguar.de/jaguar-modelle/f-pace/index.html

    F-Paces start at €43560!!
    The model tested by AMuS was a 25d AWD Portfolio, which starts at €60,360.

    It's not Porsche's or Mercedes' fault that the V6 diesel F-Pace starts at €72,110.

    Jaguar fans would argue the V6 diesel in the F-Pace is twin-turbo and 300PS, justifying the €12-16k difference to the 258PS mono-turbos in the Macan and GLC, but the Macan is as fast as JLR claim the 300PS V6 diesel F-Pace is, and we know how fast and loose JLR play with performance stats.

    The truth is the F-Pace is €10-15k overpriced in Germany.

    This explains why JLR's official figures for Jaguar sales are falling in Germany in recent months, after the padding effect of launch stocks in 2016, and unofficially, the figures are being supported by large pre-registering by JLR dealers, and selling cars to lease and rental firms.

    Why can't JLR, and its supporters, just admit the car is overpriced, and move on. Just act like a normal car company, where 10-20% discounting is now the norm, and stop pretending your company is special, and its cars immune to the forces everyone else - except perhaps Porsche - has to play by.

    You're not Porsche. You're not Volvo. You're not even Alfa.
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 21-08-17 at 15:09.

  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    On the other hand, you do really have a point about the market. Why do so few people buy Jaguars? Why do people keep buying the German brands (and now the Swedish too)? Perhaps people do know more about cars, than I think. Perhaps the word goes around about good and bad cars more than I think.
    - I think you've put your finger on it. There is a kind of grapevine, where people learn the truth about cars, washing machines, kettles, good tradesmen etc., and then there's "MediaLand", where the high-paid PR and marketing people, with their shiny MBAs and 2:2s in PPE from Oxbridge, tell the gullible 'Product A is stunning, much, much better, sexier... , washes whiter than Product B', which kind of worked post-war, up until the late 90s, when the Internet gave anyone with a decent IQ a chance to find out the truth for themselves, from forums, like this, from online ADAC statistics, YouTube user vids etc.

    My point is Jaguar and JLR are basically media entities, with a profile far bigger than the mundane reality - of very few Jaguars sold to real paying customers outside the UK.

    When people are confronted with this, they generally refuse to believe the data supporting reality, as changing our thinking causes mental turmoil and almost physical pain.

 

 

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