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Jaguar building their answer to BMW's M3

11K views 30 replies 8 participants last post by  Baron95 
#1 ·
Taking the focus off that elusive Ingenium petrol 4 cylinder, Jaguar are playing around with a super charged V8 in order to capture some BMW M sales before building a straight six.




Red brake calipers and larger wheels signal a higher-performance powertrain is on the drawing board for Jaguar's XE sport sedan.

Photo credit: KGP PHOTOGRAPHY



Richard Truett


Automotive News Europe


May 30, 2017 17:31 CET

With many key engineers and leaders from BMW now working at Jaguar Land Rover, it only makes sense that the British automaker would develop a car that takes aim at one of BMW's crown jewels: the M3, for decades one of the world's most highly regarded sports sedans.

Spy photographers in England captured what appears to be a high-performance version of the compact XE sedan undergoing testing. It's unclear which engine could be powering the car. While Jaguar Land Rover does have a 575-hp supercharged V-8 engine in its lineup, it likely would be too tall to fit under the hood of the XE.

That's because the supercharger fits on top of the engine between the cylinder banks. Not only would it be a tight fit, it would make it difficult for the car to meet European pedestrian safety standards, which require sufficient space between the underside of the hood and the top of the engine so that the hood can deform as it absorbs the energy of a person landing on it.


It also would be hard to stuff a pair of turbochargers under the XE's hood with a V-8 engine.


The hot rumor in England is that Jaguar Land Rover engineers are preparing a new straight-six engine based on the four-cylinder Ingenium engines currently in production. When JLR announced the Ingenium family in 2014, it went to great pains to explain that the architecture would be flexible, configurable and modular.

That means, with each cylinder being 500 cc, or one-half liter, and using the same valves, pistons and other parts, JLR could produce it on the same assembly line as three-cylinder, four-cylinder or six-cylinder engines.


In any case, perhaps a shot of adrenaline is what the XE needs to kick-start sales. The car, which has won good reviews, has been overshadowed by the hot-selling F-Pace crossover.


In regard to appearance, there isn't much in the spy photos that separates the XE SVR -- if this is what that vehicle is -- from more pedestrian versions. Only the red brake calipers and larger wheels signal a higher-performance powertrain
This is the information on the car provided by DVLA

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#2 ·
Yeah!!!! Just what the XE needs. A hugely tall, heavy lump of 5.0L/SC metal straddling over its from "axle"/suspension. That will do wonders for the handling.

That to get doubly the same power the Giulia gets from a 2.9L compact V6, BMW gets from a 3.0L I6 or Mercedes gets from a 4.0L V8, on much more balanced chassis.

I take bets that this will be at least 500 lbs heavier than the M3.
 
#3 ·
Was hoping they wouldn´t be using the supercharged 5.0l V8 in any future SVR branded cars anymore... Especially not in the XE SVR..

There were a few of tell tell signs, that made me think, a turbocharged I6 is being redied for the future SVRs:

- remember those videos of the alleged F-Pace SVR from the Nürburgring? The car sounded NOTHING like one with a supercharged engine, it was clearly a sound of a turbocharged engine.
- the recently face-lifted F-Type has got the 400 Sport model, availability of which is limited to only 12 months, probably meaning the engine will be phased out.
- and finally, the XE SV Project 8 having a monster 600BHB supercharged V8 - I immediately thought that they are stuffing the engine in it to create a sort of last hurray for the old V8
and then plan to introduce an I6 turbocharged "normal" SVR in a year or so... Because it wouldnt make any sense to reveal the "normal" XE SVR with the same V8 as the SV Project 8,
cause, why spend 150k on a car if at the same time a car with more or less the same engine is available for 60k or so...? Turbocharged I6 on the other hand would be sufficiently
different from the Project 8 and those who would have bought the Project 8 wouldnt feel shorthanded..

Anyway those are my 2 cents and I would like to believe that Jag will act similarly to Alfa and reveal their I6 range starting with the most potent version first.
 
#5 ·
There were a few of tell tell signs, that made me think, a turbocharged I6 is being redied for the future SVRs:
You are dreaming, and likely to be totally and completely disappointed if you think an I6 will come from Jaguar anytime soon. On top of that, as I have said on other threads, packaging that in the XE would be a nightmare and make the vehicle even more nose heavy, with a higher C.G. - a dynamic nightmare.
 
#4 ·
So the 5.0 litres V8 does actually fit under the bonnet of the XE? The quoted article says, it probably won't fit. So which is it? The DVLA only says, it's a 5,000 cc engine. Since each cylinder of the Ingenium engines is 500 cc, it could be a 10 cylinder Ingenium engine ;-)
 
#14 · (Edited)
So what happened to the actual M3, C63, RS4, Guilia QV... XE competitor, promised by Autocar and JLR's other media pets since forever?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/hot-jaguar-xe-r-guns-bmw-m3

http://www.carsuk.net/jaguar-xe-svr-get-489bhp-v8-take-bmw-m3/

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/xe/88275/new-jaguar-xe-svr-jags-bmw-m3-rival-spied-testing (story goes back 3 years)

JLR is going down the same route as the borderline criminal MG-Rover gang. Promise the world, deliver tat. Massively overpriced tat. Plan a sharp exit.

This irrelevance, diversion, desperation, the 'Project 8', and the already considered a standing joke, new £70,000 4-cylinder Discovery, mark the outing of JLR to even the most fervent fanboys, as just another typical British ripoff, like British Aerospace's tarting up of the ancient original Range Rover in the early 90s, Egan's smoke and mirrors 'renaissance' of Jaguar in the 80s, and of course the Phoenix Four's looting of the remnants of Austin-Morris and BMW's dowry.

3 years on, thanks to the internet, we can also now see the blatant lies peddled by JLR's fanboys/shills/paid trolls, who back in 2014 still had the ear of some dupes, to Jaguar's magnificent future, under 'the hugely investing Tata'. Have a laugh (from Auto Express comments):


The Motoring World
mb3 years ago

'There will be Four distinct XE models all realeased over an 18-24 month period, also during this time, a new XJ, XF, XFSB, XFC, SUV and another all new model will be launched.

Jaguar is still a small company, but they are delivering cars like a bigger company, all of which have proved to be huge success stories. The new ones will carry that forward.'
 
#15 ·
Any guesses how much this 'Project 8 quid spent at Halfords' XE will weigh?

Mine is 2,000 kg, with driver and full fuel tank.

The irony of such a cumbersome pig with its ancient supercharged V8 stuck over its front axle, seems to be lost on porky pig himself, Matt Saunders, of Autocar:

'For starters, it’ll take weight out of the car — right where it needs to come out, over the front axle.'

- is he talking about JLR's promised since 2013 new Ingenium family V8? No. The German Mercedes-AMG 4-litre V8 in an Aston Martin:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/industry/opinion-why-i-cant-wait-drive-v8-aston-martin-db11

Why is that Saunders can laud such a move in an Aston, but never calls out the pig iron sat over all 'top' JLR front axles since God was a little boy?

Is it because Haymarket owns Autocar, and JLR pay Haymarket for PR activities?
 
#18 ·
Wauw! I'd love driving through my neighbourhood with that engine noise ;-)
I can understand, why it's so expensive. It can't be cheap building a clay model and making all those modifications. When people see a car like that, they often think, that it's just a standard car with a new front bumper, a large rear wing and some huge wheels. They don't realise, how much has been altered.
 
#19 ·
Sadly, that beast is a 100-unit demo run, won't even be available in right-hand-drive for the UK.

I think it is cool that Jaguar SVO did it. But they need to have regular production cars on the road that people can buy. Not 100-off showcase cars.
 
#20 ·
300, but they'll quietly shift the last 200 for 'special discounts'.

The today announced hypercar-rivalling 911 GT2 RS, at £200k, shows the daftness of the Project 8.

More importantly, Project 8 confirms that JLR can't do a straight M3 competitor, because an XE with the 5-litre lump in it, even in 550PS AWD 'SVR' tune, would be destroyed, weighing 200-250 kgs more than the BMW and Guilia QV, and costing around £80k.

There is no Ingenium I6. There is no 4-litre V8 from BMW. Ergo, no serious Jaguar sports car.

There is MG-Rover deja-vu.
 
#22 ·
Just keep in mind that Circa 90% of Jaguar XEs sold are diesel models :(



Petrol-engined Jaguar XE saloons proved far more dependable than their diesel counterparts (see below), with less than 17% of cars suffering faults that were categorised in two areas: engine electrics and non-engine electrics. All the problems were fixed under warranty in less than a day, too.


Jaguar's diesel-engined XEs let the side down, with 44% of cars experiencing faults. Non-engine electrical issues were the most common bugbear, but there were other problems, such as the bodywork, engine, fuel system, steering and suspension. All were fixed for free in less than a week, though.

 
#25 ·
Just the thing for the guy with deep pockets and no concern for the environment.
Does Harry [Metcalfe]'s Garage mention in the video that he works for JLR?

Just another sign that the Project 8 hasn't sold.

Maybe Harry shoud follow his employer's style and buy one or several hundred for himself.


PS the new BMW 8-Series launches today - much cheaper than the above, probably near the same rear space and the ~£100k M8, much faster - ~650hp real.

- just another reason why this thing hasn't sold.
 
#27 ·
I just simply can't believe that the Jaguar halo car MY2019 has exactly the same engine as my MY2010 (built in 2009) Jaguar XFR. The exact same engine.

This dude makes a huge deal about the engine, but it is simply my 10 year old XFR engine of 510HP, with a trivial 90hp bump.

10-years with the absolute same engine. No changes to internals. No change to block. No change to bottom end. No change to valve train. Just pushing the supercharger a bit harder like a corner garage shop will do.

He also makes a big deal out of adjustable coil-over struts like if they are some alien technology, when again it is fitted factory or aftermaket to all sorts of mundane cars. And his biggest selling point on the suspension is "It is tremendously expensive stuff" - not "good" or "great" or "effective". No. Just "expensive".
 
#28 ·
In all fairness I think part of the appeal of that particular car is its engine which isn't yet another turbocharged v6 or v8. If they actually had a turbocharged v6 like a 911 in it then it would die a death as a poor relation of that car, as it is its a blast from the past some will want - although no right hand drive cars is a mistake imho.
 
#30 ·
That would explain why the Ferrari GTO isn't of much interest to anybody, too old fashioned.

Technically, there is no difference between an engine supercharged mechanically from the crank and one turbocharged from an exhaust driven compressor. In both cases peak torque is limited by fuel octane. The shape of the torque curve differs as does the torque delivery and one is not inherently superior to the other. Turbos can be tuned to deliver better off boost fuel economy than mechanically supercharged engines. That is the main reason for the industry wide switch. Supercharged engines drive better on the road.

The reason the Jaguar V8 is still in production is the design was state of the art when it was first introduced. Jaguar traditionally builds advanced engines and their V8 is no exception. This engine could deliver even more power but there is no real point to raising engine stress for more power in a road car. It is more rational to fit a larger displacement engine.

To diss a supercharged engine for supposed poor fuel economy when being driven under boost is irrational.
 
#31 ·
I'm not dissing the engine. I liked it when it was on my XFR. But that was a decade ago. To hang that same engine on a $250K halo car a decade later is silly.

You mentioned Ferrari. Lets look at what Ferrari has done with their mid-engine sports car V8s in the same period of time.

In MY2009 when the 5.0V8 XFR/XKR engine entered production, the Ferrari V8 as in the F430 was a NA 4.3L V8.

Since then, Ferrari has launched a completely new 4.5L V8 engine with DI in the 458 Italia (Ferrari/Maserati F136 engine).

And then completely it completely changed the game, again, with another brand new engine, the 3.9L Twin-two-scroll turbo engine in the 488GTB.

That is the difference between standing still and moving forward in engine technology. Pretty much everyone else has gone through 2 engine upgrade cycles in the same period of time. Except Jaguar. AMG went from SC to NA to Turbo in their AMG63 engines. BMW went from NAI6 to V8 to Tubo I6 in the M3. Etc.
 
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