Does this look like success? - Page 13
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron95 View Post
    So a typical Jaguar has over twice the defects than the typical Kia?

    Did I get that right?
    I forgot to add that a large part of that huge jump in Jaguar's problem rate from last year will be ICTP.

    Did I not say last year that JLR would get away with vomiting this disgrace onto the market in UK, due to typical 'don't rock the boat' servile attitude, but would be amazed if there wasn't a class action lawsuit in the U.S., by owners peed off with their 'luxury' Jag-wah and $100k 'uber-luxury' Range Rover, with an infotainment system you wouldn't find in a $25k Kia?

    How prescient was that?, the reference to Kia, which has now stormed to the top of the JD Power IQS chart, offering massive value for money, reliability, like the original VW Skodas from the '90s.

    ICTP shows the arrogance of JLR, thinking, knowing that they get away with this rubbish in their home patch, because 'JLR is British', and the media in its pocket. Rotten setups like this inevitably produce rotten outcomes.

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  3. #122
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    Success? The pain illustrated below, a legacy of almost a decade of non-investment and media coverup, will just increase, as the rest of the industry, the serious makers, just pull inexorably away, from the PR outfit masquerading as a car company.





    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-driver-page-4

    Bear in mind, BMW has the M550iX, which will wipe the floor with the E43 AMG, for not much more money, and the new Audi A6/A7 is just around the corner, and the 'all-new' XF is not even 2 years old, so will have to fight this losing battle for at least 5 more years, if JLR is still around by then.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Could someone in the know please argue against BMVIrep? Because, as I said before, what he says sounds more and more sensible, and it makes me really sad.
    I won't "argue" against anyone, but I will share my view - nothing new, really. Things are not all rosy for Jaguar, but neither are they the doom and gloom that BMVI paints.

    Jaguar is a cherished brand, and it goes way beyond California and UK. Where I live (New England, USA) Jaguar is a loved and admired brand. As I mentioned there is a brand new dealership ($10M investment) being built 5 miles from my house. Jaguar has a lot of brand equity. Yes, we have to hear about the "reliability" issues and such from friends, but they all admire the brand.

    Jaguar's problem is powertrains and lack of engineering resources (money and talent) to compete at the "halo" ends of the markets. They have a severe deficit in powertrains. While the E-type had one of the lowest hood lines in the industry, the F-Type has the fattest/tallest nose in the sports car world. The nose of my Corvette is literally half the height of the nose of the F-type. It is all because they have a giantly tall old V8 hanging over the front axle line. It is a dynamic nightmare.

    But, on the other hand, given their limited resources, Jaguar has very successfully launched the F-Pace, which is the best mid-size European SUV in mid-level trim. (of course at the halo end - think Macan/Cayenne GTS and Turbo, GLE63AMG) it gets obliterated - again, due to lack of power train.

    So, what does Jaguar need? Access to modern powertrains. And no, they can't do it in-house. They have no expertise and don't have the volumes to support it. Jaguar needs (as I have been saying for 8 years) a partnership with a modern automobile group.

    Just think about an XF with the Giulia 2.9L V6 505HP engine. Or Even the XF with Ford's 450HP/510lt-lb torque Ecoboost V6 with a ford 10-speed auto. Or the F-type with the GT350 Mustangs 520HP flatplane crank NA V8 engine. Or an XE with GM's Bolt EV powertrain.

    That is all that Jaguar needs. Access to modern powertrains.

    What is the issue? No major/modern automaker wants to share technology with Jaguar while under Tata. They dislike, despise and distrust Tata as the plague.

    So they have to go to second tier. Maybe Volvo. Maybe Hyundai. Not as good a choice.
    Hailing from: New England, USA
    Jaguar XF Ownership History: 2009 XF-SC(SV8), 2010 XFR, 2012 V8 Portfolio
    Looking For: Good Handling/Light Jaguar Sports Car and Off-Road Capable Land Rover

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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron95 View Post
    So, what does Jaguar need? Access to modern powertrains. And no, they can't do it in-house. They have no expertise and don't have the volumes to support it. Jaguar needs (as I have been saying for 8 years) a partnership with a modern automobile group.

    Just think about an XF with the Giulia 2.9L V6 505HP engine. Or Even the XF with Ford's 450HP/510lt-lb torque Ecoboost V6 with a ford 10-speed auto. Or the F-type with the GT350 Mustangs 520HP flatplane crank NA V8 engine. Or an XE with GM's Bolt EV powertrain.

    That is all that Jaguar needs. Access to modern powertrains.

    What is the issue? No major/modern automaker wants to share technology with Jaguar while under Tata. They dislike, despise and distrust Tata as the plague.

    So they have to go to second tier. Maybe Volvo. Maybe Hyundai. Not as good a choice.
    Thank you for the more moderate view. I was getting quite depressed by all the negativity. I think it was you, who has written before about no automaker wanting to let Tata have access to their technology and knowhow. Why is that? To me Tata is not really an automaker. At least not one competing with the brands we know in our part of the world. They make some small and cheap cars for their home market. Cars that don't come near the standard, we are used to in the Western world. I can't see, how anybody can see them as any real competition. Do they think, Tata would then suddenly make a car to compete with a BMW in the same price range. Who would buy an Indian car from a company unknown to most people with a price tag like a BMW? Of course, they could build a reputation, if they started to built better cars, but that would take years. Admittedly, the Japanese fifty years ago and now the Koreans have managed to do it, so it's not impossible.
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Thank you for the more moderate view. I was getting quite depressed by all the negativity. I think it was you, who has written before about no automaker wanting to let Tata have access to their technology and knowhow. Why is that? To me Tata is not really an automaker.
    No one trusts Tata. They never live up to an agreement. Once your technology is in India it is a free or all. It is impossible for a foreign company to enforce any contracts in India. It is a completely corrupt company (Tata) operating inside a completely corrupt country (India).

    It is for the very same reason that Apple does not have any Apple Stores or does direct business in India.

    Now, there is an opportunity for a limited agreement with JLR in the UK, under UK law, with some tight protections to make it palatable to maybe a Volvo. But I'm not sure anyone wants to touch it.
    Hailing from: New England, USA
    Jaguar XF Ownership History: 2009 XF-SC(SV8), 2010 XFR, 2012 V8 Portfolio
    Looking For: Good Handling/Light Jaguar Sports Car and Off-Road Capable Land Rover

  8. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Do they think, Tata would then suddenly make a car to compete with a BMW in the same price range. Who would buy an Indian car from a company unknown to most people with a price tag like a BMW? Of course, they could build a reputation, if they started to built better cars, but that would take years
    You're forgetting that Tata has basically already given its domestic car business to VW, Skoda. In 3 years, there will be no Tata Motors, just VW Group south Asia or whatever, with VW really after the truck and bus business in India, before Daimler's Bharat-Benz gets it.

    Tata is not a serious car industry player. Too much money required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron95 View Post
    Jaguar has very successfully launched the F-Pace, which is the best mid-size European SUV in mid-level trim
    'The Stelvio doesn’t drive small—it’s slightly longer than the Audi Q5, the BMW X3, and the Mercedes-Benz GLC-class—but there is a precision to the controls that invites you to use more road, to corner closer to trees that crowd the driving line, and to drift nearer the drainage ditch at the pavement’s edge. In this segment, only a Porsche Macan inspires more confidence.'

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

    - no mention of the Fat-Pace? The 4-cylinder Alfa is as fast as the V6 F-Pace, due to weighing 2-300 kilos less, and obviously far more agile, as its platform is not that of a 2.5 tonne Range Rover Sport cut down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron95 View Post
    Now, there is an opportunity for a limited agreement with JLR in the UK, under UK law, with some tight protections to make it palatable to maybe a Volvo. But I'm not sure anyone wants to touch it.
    You're forgetting JLR CEO Speth already tried this, trying to get BMW or VW engines in 2013.

    There is no I6 Ingenium, less a new V8. They can't make the 4-cylinder, diesel or petrol, work, NOx, petrol particle filter, NVH etc., so a larger version was beyond them.

    There is no 'plan' now. The plan was to buy in the best large engines, '6s' and '8s', from the Germans.

    All they are trying to do now is shift the focus to electric, with the polluting Ingenium diesel and the no-show larger engines quietly discarded.

    Not a plan, just a prayer, in the hope it gets them to an IPO or a trade sale.

  9. #127
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    Another out-of-the-blue problem for Jaguar and JLR, and likely to tip Tata more into looking for an exit:

    Deutlich mehr Lohn
    Streik bei VW in Bratislava geht doch zu Ende

    'Much higher wages. Strike at VW's Bratislava plant is ended after all'

    http://www.automobilwoche.de/article...t-doch-zu-ende

    VW have been forced into agreeing to a 13.5% pay rise to its Bratislava plant workers, plus a one-off €500 payment, which will take the average wage there to around €2,000 per month.

    Of course this will read across to the new JLR plant down the road in Nitra, especially as JLR's new workers there have been led to believe that their new employer is mega successful and hugely profitable.

    So how is ~€2,000/month wage that different to producing in UK, with its depressed wages for unskilled and semi-skilled workers, those in large car plants, especially with the 20% fall in the £ against the € since last year?

    It isn't, in fact €2k/month is very similar if not the same as what a track worker starts on at Solihull, Castle Bromwich or Halewood.

    So the only reason JLR has an advantage from producing in the new Slovakian plant is the huge subsidies, bungs?, by the Slovak govt. for the plant, which are now being investigated by the European Commission for possible illegal state subsidy:

    https://www.ft.com/content/c0539756-...998b2?mhq5j=e1

    Another mess.

  10. #128
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    Supply base picking up on JLR's expected or already started quietly production cuts?:

    Schaeffler Crashes After Unexpected Profit Warning, Drags European Autos

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-27/schaeffler-crashes-after-unexpected-profit-warning-drags-european-autos

    JLR taps Schaeffler's fuel-saving valve system, sources say

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20140519/COPY01/305199912/jlr-taps-schaefflers-fuel-saving-valve-system-sources-say

    Schaeffler - INA bearings, LuK clutches transmission parts etc. Continental AG also down, due to cross link with Schaeffler, masses of parts supplied to JLR, including tyres of course.

  11. #129
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    from the horse's mouth, there is no 'multi-billion profitability', 'huge Tata investment':

    "We want to make cars that people can take on the track, but we don’t have the resource or the desire to run a motorsport programme ourselves.”

    - John Edwards, SVO boss, JLR.

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/ne...-will-never-be

    How much would it cost to run a motorsport programme? £100m? Chicken feed surely for the 'hugely successful JLR'.

    How can Aston Martin afford to run a GT racing car programme, and JLR not?

    There's only one logical answer, isn't there.

    John Edwards has possibly not unwittingly dropped a huge hint that JLR is in a cash crisis, and his interview with the Autocar hack was an opportunity to make a thinly disguised plea for more funds, to do the screamingly obvious thing a brand supposedly known for sporting ability needs to be taken seriously - a racing programme.

 

 

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