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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    False alarm, everything's tickety-boo:

    http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...-uk-paper-says



    There aren't 5,000 chartered automotive-sector engineers in the whole of UK, for starters, and across Europe, Bosch, BMW, and the rest have been hoovering up the best for their own autonomous, EV, etc. programmes for the last 5 years or so.

    So unless Tata is going to pay C.Eng engineers £100-200k, this is just garbage.


    £100-200k may not be enough because JLR may have to compete with Valeo who want just 100 researchers/engineers by the end of next year.



    PARIS
    Valeo will open a research center for artificial intelligence and “deep learning” with the aim of developing technologies that can be applied to autonomous vehicles.

    Technical expertise required to develop autonomous vehicles has pushed automakers and suppliers into new alliances and collaborations both inside outside the industry.

    The center, called Valeo.ai, will be in Paris and will have 100 researchers by the end of 2018.

    It will draw on connections to the academic world, the startup community and the company’s own research and development centers.

    “Our goal is to create a first-class research center that partners with the world’s best laboratories in the field and actively contributes to the development of applications for the car of the future,” Valeo CEO Jacques Aschenbroich said in a news release.

    Valeo.ai will focus on algorithms, infrastructure, learning processes and simulation as applied to artificial intelligence.

    Valeo has become a major supplier of autonomous driving systems through a partnership with the Israeli company Mobileye,





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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoPeep View Post
    The self employed architects and lawyers lease cars because of the tax advantages.
    It may be that in the future the self employed architects and lawyers will take a different view if choosing electric cars.
    I can easily see architects embracing electric cars but based on on the remarks of Jagular, lawyers may not be so quick to change





    28
    3'

    Buying vs Leasing — Electric Car, Tesla, & Plug-In Hybrid Drivers (CleanTechnica #EV Report)


    June 17th, 2017 by Zachary Shahan
    One of the perennial topics of interest regarding cars, in general, is whether to buy or lease.

    We won’t dive into that decades-long debate, but we were curious to see the results of that consideration among early EV drivers.


    The majority (53–87%, depending on group) bought their electric cars, while 11–44% leased them.

    Of course it may be that architects and lawyers in Europe don't buy electric cars at all

    Lawyers, may be not, but Architects, the creative and forward thinking Architects, well that is harder to believe.





  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMVIrep View Post
    Outside of 'exceptional' UK, and southern California, Jaguar is a dead brand. Too expensive, too hyped- counter-productively - no motor racing for a 'sports brand', nothing special or unique - no electric, no PHEV, no fuel cell, no innovative or unique tech anywhere.

    Why would a non-Brit, non-sixty/seventysomething Californian reliving his boyhood dream of a 1960s XK-E in a fat F-type, buy a Jag?

    Style? Debatable, subjective. Character? That's what the British rags peddle to the feeble of mind, to cover the gaping deficiencies of the product; doesn't wash with hard-headed German businessman, or thrifty French, who see through the +€10k for "Britishness", from an Indian-owned company, with a parts set from mainly common German, American and Japanese companies.

    Jaguar is back to where it was in the 1970s, still living on the 50s/60s glory, sod all real product investment from BL/Tata, reliant on a diminishing number of aging owners in UK and the west coast of the US, and technically already bankrupt, as it massively overproduces, by at least 75,000 units per year, and sells them below cost in leases, promotions to dealers, or to car rental fleets.
    Could someone in the know please argue against BMVIrep? Because, as I said before, what he says sounds more and more sensible, and it makes me really sad. When I bought my MY2012 faceliftet XF back in late 2011, everything looked great. Jaguar had launched smaller four cylinder diesel engines making the XF accessible to many more costumers. The XF had been faceliftet and looked a lot better. Almost like the concept car before the original XF launch. The electronics had been updated and everything was great.

    Then the F-Type came. Not my type of car, but everbody seemed to love it. At least until it turned out to be less capable than expected. The XE came and looked great as a sport saloon the size under the XF. The new XF came somewhat as a surprise shortly after the XE. Then the XE turned out to be an alright car, but not the class leader, they had made us expect. And standing in the shop comparing the XE and the XF instantly made you conclude, that the XF was a much better car, without being much more expensive. And even though the XF was a great car, it quickly faded. The Mercedes E-class, the Volvo X90 and latest the BMW 5 series quickly made the XF look dated. The Mercedes C-class and now the Alfa Guilia did the same for the XE. I don't know much about the F-Pace. It started out as a succes, but I fear, it is also fading away.

    And everything Jaguar promised, was late. The petrol engines didn't come. Now we have the small ones, but what about 6 and perhaps 8 cylinder versions? And what about EV, hybrid and all that, BMVIrep mentions. Where is that? It's not that JLR since, what, 2008, has talked about how they were developing hybrids, EV and all that in collaboration with universities and for the tax payers' money. Where are the results? The I-type? It looks great. Best looking Jaguar for years. But I'll believe it when I see it. Which means in production and for sale. And now they want to develop selv-driving cars! And they've invested in Lyft? Why on earth are they spending money time and energy on that, when they hardly have an up-to-date engine to put in their current cars? It seems to me, they are haphazardly or perhaps desperately trying here and there without much of a plan and no idea where to go.

    I love Jaguar and Jaguars. It's a great brand with a great heritage. I wouldn't mind buying one, if I needed a new car, but I use my heart more than my mind, when I buy cars. I can see, what BMVIrep means, and I must say, he seems to be right so far. Until Jaguar actually shows some results from all that research and development. So far they haven't. They have hardly been able to make a petrol engine from their state-of-the-art engine factory. And a petrol engine! How much more basic can it be, when you want to make a car? What about some innovation? Where is that? Where is Jaguar going from here?
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

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  6. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    Could someone in the know please argue against BMVIrep? Because, as I said before, what he says sounds more and more sensible, and it makes me really sad. When I bought my MY2012 faceliftet XF back in late 2011, everything looked great. Jaguar had launched smaller four cylinder diesel engines making the XF accessible to many more costumers. The XF had been faceliftet and looked a lot better. Almost like the concept car before the original XF launch. The electronics had been updated and everything was great.

    Then the F-Type came. Not my type of car, but everbody seemed to love it. At least until it turned out to be less capable than expected. The XE came and looked great as a sport saloon the size under the XF. The new XF came somewhat as a surprise shortly after the XE. Then the XE turned out to be an alright car, but not the class leader, they had made us expect. And standing in the shop comparing the XE and the XF instantly made you conclude, that the XF was a much better car, without being much more expensive. And even though the XF was a great car, it quickly faded. The Mercedes E-class, the Volvo X90 and latest the BMW 5 series quickly made the XF look dated. The Mercedes C-class and now the Alfa Guilia did the same for the XE. I don't know much about the F-Pace. It started out as a succes, but I fear, it is also fading away.

    And everything Jaguar promised, was late. The petrol engines didn't come. Now we have the small ones, but what about 6 and perhaps 8 cylinder versions? And what about EV, hybrid and all that, BMVIrep mentions. Where is that? It's not that JLR since, what, 2008, has talked about how they were developing hybrids, EV and all that in collaboration with universities and for the tax payers' money. Where are the results? The I-type? It looks great. Best looking Jaguar for years. But I'll believe it when I see it. Which means in production and for sale. And now they want to develop selv-driving cars! And they've invested in Lyft? Why on earth are they spending money time and energy on that, when they hardly have an up-to-date engine to put in their current cars? It seems to me, they are haphazardly or perhaps desperately trying here and there without much of a plan and no idea where to go.

    I love Jaguar and Jaguars. It's a great brand with a great heritage. I wouldn't mind buying one, if I needed a new car, but I use my heart more than my mind, when I buy cars. I can see, what BMVIrep means, and I must say, he seems to be right so far. Until Jaguar actually shows some results from all that research and development. So far they haven't. They have hardly been able to make a petrol engine from their state-of-the-art engine factory. And a petrol engine! How much more basic can it be, when you want to make a car? What about some innovation? Where is that? Where is Jaguar going from here?
    Sad thing Muenster is that this forum is unlikely to provide you with an answer

    We should not be surprised that this forum attracts Jaguar aficionados, after all that is the primary objective of myself and the team.

    BMVIrep, an industry expert who's income is dependent on his analysis and opinion, will be viewed with great scepticism at best, or at worst, as an out and out troll
    The fact is that the forum does not happily indulge trolls should indicate plainly my view.

    I have long argued that Jaguar were wrong to delay the introduction of the Ingenium Petrol engine, indeed it was the reason that I cancelled my XE order, and they are in my view wrong not to have long ago introduced an Hybrid Petrol option.





  7. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekem View Post
    Sad thing Muenster is that this forum is unlikely to provide you with an answer

    We should not be surprised that this forum attracts Jaguar aficionados, after all that is the primary objective of myself and the team.

    BMVIrep, an industry expert who's income is dependent on his analysis and opinion, will be viewed with great scepticism at best, or at worst, as an out and out troll
    The fact is that the forum does not happily indulge trolls should indicate plainly my view.

    I have long argued that Jaguar were wrong to delay the introduction of the Ingenium Petrol engine, indeed it was the reason that I cancelled my XE order, and they are in my view wrong not to have long ago introduced an Hybrid Petrol option.
    The trouble is, what is the definition of wrong? I think, you can use the word wrong, when they make a wrong decision. But I'm afraid this is not a decision. This is a necessity. Why on earth would they decide not to introduce a petrol engine? As I wrote, this is so basic, that it can't be a deliberate decision not to introduce the Ingenium petrol engine until now. And then not in a six cylinder version. Not introducing a hybrid could be a decision, but since everybody else is doing it with great succes, it seems like a very odd decision.

    This leads me to think, that JLR simply can't launch a petrol engine, or at least hasn't been able to until now. And they can't launch a hybrid or anything else even remotely innovative or leading edge. And why can't they? Perhaps they can't afford it. Perhaps they don't have the knowhow. Perhaps they don't have the manpower. All this sounds very odd, when we have heard, how well JLR is doing, how many research projects they participate in, how fancy, modern and expensive their new engine factory is. I simply can't believe, somebody has said: "Let's postpone the petrol Ingenium engine three years". Why would anybody do that? It can't be a good business idea. You cancelled your order, to name one. It wasn't like the existing petrol engines were exactly modern. It wasn't like they were readily available. They came from Ford. A collaboration, which couldn't develop and had to end. I can see no sensible reason to delay the petrol Ingenium. The only reason is, that they for some reason couldn't do it.
    Kind regards
    Henrik Münster, Denmark
    MY2009 XF Premium Luxury 4.2 V8 petrol, lunar gray, dove leather.
    Previous: MY2012 XF Luxury 2.2 (190 ps) diesel, azurite blue, barley leather.

  8. #96
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    The reason they "couldn't do it" was they were selling as many vehicles as they could build and all with Diesel engines.

    The Ford petrol is a very fine engine. Not many buyers for petrol until this year.....
    Currently 2013 XF V6 SC AWD Caviar on London Tan/Navy
    Sold my much loved '09 XF Lux Azure on Dove/Charcoal

  9. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    I don't know much about the F-Pace. It started out as a success, but I fear, it is also fading away.
    40% of Jags registered in Germany so far this year are F-Paces; 94% of which were diesel - see KBA's 'FZ10' report:

    http://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Produ...tml?nn=1146130

    The F-Pace is clearly now Jaguar's main seller, but the almost total reliance on diesel and the new Volvo XC60, arriving in UK showrooms this weekend, with even UK mags like Auto Express admitting the Volvo is better made, more comfortable, has more tech etc., plus is available as a plug-in hybrid, means the F-Pace's days as the go-to alternative to the Germans, are numbered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    And everything Jaguar promised, was late. The petrol engines didn't come. Now we have the small ones, but what about 6 and perhaps 8 cylinder versions? And what about EV, hybrid and all that, BMVIrep mentions. Where is that? It's not that JLR since, what, 2008, has talked about how they were developing hybrids, EV and all that in collaboration with universities and for the tax payers' money. Where are the results? The I-type? It looks great. Best looking Jaguar for years. But I'll believe it when I see it. Which means in production and for sale. And now they want to develop selv-driving cars! And they've invested in Lyft? Why on earth are they spending money time and energy on that, when they hardly have an up-to-date engine to put in their current cars? It seems to me, they are haphazardly or perhaps desperately trying here and there without much of a plan and no idea where to go.
    You have to remember that JLR's CEO, Dr Ralf Speth, ex-BMW of course, went back to Munich, and to Wolfsburg, in 2013, to try to buy engines. It was reported in the German publication, Manager Magazin, but nowhere else to my knowledge, certainly not in any English language media.

    Why would he have done that, when Ingenium, the engine family programme, was 3 years old, nearing the end?

    I believe it was because as a trained engineer, and a 30 year plus veteran of the industry, working for the arguably best maker of engines prior, he knew that Ingenium was a dud, and had no prospect of delivering a range of engines, I4s, I6s, V8s, that would compete.

    His mission was unsuccessful, as we can deduce from the lack of BMW/VW engines in JLR.

    The reason Ingenium was a dud, even back in 2013, when Speth made his assessment, was that engine making in JLR had died almost two decades prior, with the closure of the Jaguar Browns Lane engine plant, and the last dribs of Land Rover engine-making knowhow, with the Td5 five-cylinder 'Storm' diesel.

    The knowhow, expertise, facilities were lost, and the UK generally since the 90s, probably 80s, had lost its capacity for design and production of volume engines, relying on Ford, with its US and German resources, Nissan and Toyota.

    Switching it all back on, like a tap, isn't possible, as JLR with its Ingenium, and its high-ranking ex-BMW German engineers, has found out.

    Also, the recent £15m investment in Lyft, smacks as you say of lack of direction, and senior management indulgence, similar to the latter days of MG-Rover, around 2003, when money was spent on converting the Rover 75 to rear-wheel drive, and projects like MG X-Power, and resurrecting a tiny Italian sports car marque, seemed to mark the beginning of the end, for a deluded, self-indulgent, greedy management team.
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 19-06-17 at 06:36.

  10. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagular View Post
    The reason they "couldn't do it" was they were selling as many vehicles as they could build and all with Diesel engines.
    Setting aside the integrity of those 'record' sales, the accusation that cannot be sidestepped is why did a clean-sheet, five year, £500 million engine programme produce an engine so far away from real-driving emissions compliance?

    You could retort with 'no one knew or could have foreseen the regulation environment in 2015/2016, when Dieselgate blew up, back in 2009/10, when Ingenium was in conception', but what about Mercedes' just a year later introduced, similarly brand new 2-litre diesel, 'OM654', that has been shown to meet RDE, with margin to spare?

    The Mercedes engine would have kicked off around 2010, once it became clear that the hoped for 'Wunderdiesel', 'OM651', the 2.1-litre engine, was a dud, with major injector problems, design flaws, and no easy path for future development, either on power or emission reduction.

    My belief is Mercedes reacting to the embarrassing disaster that was 'OM651', went to town on 'OM654', but also, seeing the rumours swirling within the industry in 2014, possibly earlier, about VW's problems, held back their new engine, at least a year, to ensure it would comply.

    My point is, JLR didn't. They spat out Ingenium diesel in late 2014, when it was neither ready as an engine in itself - terrible NVH problems - nor EU6 compliant outside the lab, which must have been known to the engineers, but the commercial side, desperate for something new, probably countermanded.

    They've no one to blame but themselves. They should have delayed Ingenium, the 4 cyl. diesel, redesigning SCR catalyst size, AdBlue reservoir size, and so on, which for instance Mercedes has had to do with its current, soon to be replaced V6 diesel, to make it RDE-compliant.

    Imagine if they had done that - delayed, and made it complaint. Imagine the kudos they would have now, selling their diesels as truly compliant, independently tested and so on. You'd never hear the end of it from the likes of Autocar, but it would have been amazing brownie points, and possibly enough to have saved JLR from its current tailspin in diesel sales, in UK and Germany particularly.

    It will make a great future case study for MBA students - as in, 'what would you have done?'.
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 19-06-17 at 07:13.

  11. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muenster View Post
    The trouble is, what is the definition of wrong? I think, you can use the word wrong, when they make a wrong decision. But I'm afraid this is not a decision. This is a necessity. Why on earth would they decide not to introduce a petrol engine? As I wrote, this is so basic, that it can't be a deliberate decision not to introduce the Ingenium petrol engine until now. And then not in a six cylinder version. Not introducing a hybrid could be a decision, but since everybody else is doing it with great succes, it seems like a very odd decision.

    This leads me to think, that JLR simply can't launch a petrol engine, or at least hasn't been able to until now. And they can't launch a hybrid or anything else even remotely innovative or leading edge. And why can't they? Perhaps they can't afford it. Perhaps they don't have the knowhow. Perhaps they don't have the manpower. All this sounds very odd, when we have heard, how well JLR is doing, how many research projects they participate in, how fancy, modern and expensive their new engine factory is. I simply can't believe, somebody has said: "Let's postpone the petrol Ingenium engine three years". Why would anybody do that? It can't be a good business idea. You cancelled your order, to name one. It wasn't like the existing petrol engines were exactly modern. It wasn't like they were readily available. They came from Ford. A collaboration, which couldn't develop and had to end. I can see no sensible reason to delay the petrol Ingenium. The only reason is, that they for some reason couldn't do it.


    I think Muenster that my use of the word "wrong" is confirmed to be correct when one reads again the words of Jaguar published in September 2016 which Baron95 posted. (http://www.xfforum.co.uk/threads/582...launched/page4 )

    IMG_0625.jpg

    IMG_0626.jpg

    IMG_0627.jpg
    Elsewhere we were told in a Jaguar press release:

    Ingenium will also come to market as one of the most tested and proven Jaguar Land Rover engines ever.
    Before the first Ingenium engine is sold, it will have already undergone the equivalent of more than eight years of the toughest, most punishing testing that Jaguar Land Rover engineers could devise.

    These tests include a huge range of integrity and durability testing, including more than 72,000 hours of dyno testing and 2 million miles of real-world testing to ensure these engines deliver – and continue to deliver.


    If the above reports are to be believed then the absence of the petrol Ingenium engine can fairly be described as a wrong decision.

    Alternately the conclusion must be that Jaguar haven't been honest.





  12. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekem View Post
    Alternately the conclusion must be that Jaguar haven't been honest.
    Honesty is overrated. What is far more important for a serious, thrusting premium car maker, on the cusp of overtaking the diesel-tainted Germans, is:

    'launching an innovative partnership with the band Gorrilaz.'

    http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/busi...-land-13203757

    - now that will show BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche who's boss!

    Tell us more, about this stunning development, I hear you say with bated breath:

    'Jaguar Land Rover is keen to recruit the brightest technical minds from across the globe through its innovative partnership with the band Gorillaz.

    Potential applicants will be able to download a Gorillaz app and try to crack a code-breaking challenge. Those who succeed will be fast-tracked through the recruitment process without the need for a CV.'

    - hmm.

    So those '5,000 extra engineers for JLR' headline blasted across the UK/US mainstream media yesterday, turns out to be:

    1. 1,000 jobs
    2. not 'engineers', i.e. European ingenieur level or UK chartered level, not even the usual UK 'washing machine engineer', i.e. anyone with six months classroom training on a sandwich course for a BTEC, but actually anyone with a phone.

    - 'skills rather than qualifications' - or, 'we won't pay a tenured £100k for a four year university educated engineer, followed by minimum five years formal training, but £20k for 'app engineers', on a six-month/12-month contract, with no pension rights, other benefits and so on'.

    How typically modern British business - cheapskate, misleading/deceitful, cynical.

    And how desperate for JLR and the British media to pump this story, to try to deflect from JLR's real ongoing 'Diesel Handbag' existential crisis, which unfortunately 'tame auto expert' Professor David Bailey, who is obviously promoting JLR/WMG, not an independent academic writing on the automotive industry, cretinously torpedos, by:

    '"The European car market is rapidly turning away from diesels in the wake of the Volkswagen crisis, with consumers spooked by fears over tighter regulations, restrictions on diesels in cities, and uncertainty over residual values of cars."'

    '“Jaguar Land Rover in particular has been far too slow to get into the burgeoning EV market and is now playing catch-up with the likes of Tesla and BMW."'

    - as good as admitting that JLR is in the brown stuff due to their massive reliance on diesel, and unlike every other maker, no PHEV, no EV, no credible or even available petrols.

    I'll say this for Jaguar/JLR/their media&hackademic pumpers, they are unfailingly good for a laugh. Gorillaz!
    Last edited by BMVIrep; 19-06-17 at 09:30.

 

 

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