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Was it too early for the I-Pace ?

367K views 4K replies 21 participants last post by  hydrajaws 
#1 ·
Different car/ market I know but given the present plight of diesel cars, which in the U.K. the F-Pace is , and the high level of interest in Hybrids I wonder if the Outlander will steal a march on Jaguar.
Diesel is bad news and the I-Pace will be expensive.

Best selling PHEV in Europe must be worth a few diesel F-Paces ?

Mitsubishi delivers 635 Outlander PHEVs to Ukranian police

Posted June 8, 2017 by Charles Morris




Mitsubishi has delivered 635 Outlander PHEV vehicles to the National Police of Ukraine, an order resulting from an emissions trading agreement called the Green Investment Scheme.

This is the second time MMC has supplied vehicles under the Green Investment Scheme – in 2011, it delivered 507 i‐MiEVs to the government of Estonia.




Since its launch in 2013, the Outlander PHEV has recorded cumulative sales of 80,768 units (as of the end of 2016), and has been the best-selling PHEV in Europe for four years in a row.

At the delivery ceremony, MMC President Osamu Masuko said, “I would like to thank the Ukrainian government for evaluating our Outlander PHEV highly and deciding that it is the right option for the country’s police force.

The Outlander PHEV is not only environmentally friendly but also contains our latest technologies such as our advanced 4-wheel-drive system Super All-Wheel Control, which makes it highly suitable for police use.”
 
#1,933 ·
Helps a bit:

A major test has been carried out on e-tron, i-Pace, EQC and Model X. looked at mileage, noise and other snacks. Unfortunately, the case is behind the payment wall. Haven't read it myself, but sure enough, the EQC comes out pretty well on the mileage test:

https://www.elbil24.no/pro/rekkevidde-forbruk-og-ladehastighet---her-er-testen-som-gir-deg-svaret-pa-alt/71573376?fbclid=IwAR1GJwtCmVUJLagkvUVvTUvP-c_FhLkG9Cq2XmwBKrhY29BchIQQJs24hzU

The EQC was run 426km before it stopped. i-Pace and e-tron stopped much earlier, Tesla went over 500 km.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://elbilforum.no/index.php?topic=45605.210

Someone needs to sue JLR/lodge a formal complaint with Plod(JLR's partner in crime) for conspiracy - JLR/Plod/UK.gov/HM Press/the Royals - to commit fraud - '292/298 miles'.
 
#1,935 ·
Porsche's electric cars at "Turbo" and "Turbo S".

What will they cal the petrol 911s? 911 Electric and 911 Electric S.

Porsche is losing the plot. Still can't match Tesla's acceleration of top speed from the oldest series production model in Tesla's line up, the Model S, even costing twice as much. Ouch.
 
#1,936 · (Edited)
So we know the answer to 2 questions:

1. was it too early for the I-Pace? - yes, by about a century - see below

2. why did Speth and co. bin the planned for launch in late 2018/early 2019 'eXJ'? - see below



Never mind the I-Pace, the Taycan needs to duck and cover - although Porsche will trade on uber performance, rather than uber luxury and space.

This, like the Taycan, is what billions, tens of billions and a culture of being the best engineers in the world gets you.

For Speth, the Media, UK.gov, the Royals etc to launch the 'Bentley/Tesla killer' I-Pace with a boot 'eXJ', and shower it with I-Pace-Plus awards, rapturously received, orgasms etc BS, was a bridge too far for even these lunatic morons.
 
#1,937 ·
Can't be bothered to check anymore, but still falling:

Re: Resale value

Post by DickiePhitt » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:29 pm

Just to add a mischievous twist to this thread.

I put the Reg No of my 5 month old I-Pace S in WeBuyAnyCar.com and it came back with £45k
- couple of grand a month at least is the rate. And yet JLR still employs thousands of shills on the internet to push that the I-Pace is a success, is production-constrained, is 'stunning' etc, etc.

It's the definition of a rudderless organisation, with the gimp at the top just crossing off the days on the calendar, and the PR crew of Hallett and his media mates making a mockery of what's left of a car company.
 
#1,938 ·
But EVs are soo quiet - unless you buy The Car of the Century or 'The Disruptor':

EQC did absolutely well in this test.
The fact that I-pace and E-tron stopped much earlier can well be debated.
Model X: 536km (20 ")
EQC: 426km (20 ")
E-Tron: 387km (21 ")
I-pace: 364km (22 ")

Adjusted for different sizes of rims, the EQC came about 20km longer than the E-tron / I-pace. So approx. 5% better reach on EQC


Here is the result of noise test:
DB (ROUNDED) AUDI E-TRON 55 (21 ") JAGUAR I-PACE (22") MB EQC 400 (20 ") TESLA MODEL X (20")
60 km / h 55 67 61 67
70 km / h 61 69 63 68
80 km / h 63 71 65 70
90 km / h 65 73 67 71
100 km / h 67 75 69 73
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://elbilforum.no/index.php?topic=43221.105
https://elbilforum.no/index.php?topic=43221.105

- up to 12 dB is huge! 4 times noisier at typical urban speeds, 35-40 mph, than the e-tron. Ridiculous.

It's a tin can. The weight delta, of around 250 kg to the Germans, is due to JLR stripping out all sound insulation/deadening they could - a literal tin/aluminium can.

Why do that, absolute craziness? Because their own testing showed an I-Pace with the required sound insulation/deadening of at least 150 kg would drive the already pitiful REAL range down to sub 150 miles effective.

The I-Pace project was all about screaming at the top of their - JLR-Media-UK state - lungs '300 MILES RANGE'.

They knew Tesla had the hold over 300 mile range, so they had to match it, nullify and neutralise this advantage, and then smash the Tesla - hence the 'Game-changer', Tesla-killer' nonsense - with the claim that it was inordinately better than a Tesla for driving dynamics - against the much bigger SUV Model X - and of course 'luxury' - the self-titled 'World's First Premium EV SUV'.

And that's why the I-Pace is a rattly tin can joke, along with its one thousand and one other fundamental faults and problems - like an inability to brake - the 0.5 second or longer delay in going from regen, non-mechanical braking to mechanical braking, as evidenced now comprehensively by the non-UK statutory recall for a safety critical item, and Carwow's around 5m longer braking from 70 mph, against up to 800 kg lighter cars.
 
#1,939 ·
Aha! So the '80 kWh' EQC - inferior to the '90 kWh I-Pace' - actually has a 90+ kWh battery - which some of us knew for months - it's 94 kWh - essentially the same pack that will go into the 2020 EQS - stated as '100 kWh':

They drove on country roads and followed speed limits all the way.
Don't know how interesting it is for everyone, but they also stated how many kWh they got charged on each car on Ionity after driving the cars from 100-0%.

E-throne: 88,141 kWh
I-Pace: 81,884 kWh
EQC: 84,928 kWh
Model-X: 104,791 kWh

If you look at the added effect against the number of km driven you get this consumption:
E-tron 228Wh / km
I-Pace: 225Wh / km
EQC: 199Wh / km
Model X: 196Wh / km
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://elbilforum.no/index.php?topic=43221.105
https://elbilforum.no/index.php?topic=43221.105

- so the I-Pace actually has the smallest battery. Is there anything 'Game-changing' about this thing?
 
#1,940 ·
Product excellence Reality versus JLR Lies/Fraud&Media Brainwashing - what wins?:

from 16:30:

Deluded/Brainwashed Bloke: 'So, Clare, would you have one of these?'
female:'If I could afford one, yes'
Baffled Bloke: 'It's not as bad as I thought it was going to be... ...it's cheaper than the I-Pace'
female: '...and nicer'
Perplexed Bloke, battling his Media/Patriotic Brainwashing: 'you mean on the feel of the road?'
female - just going by facts of her eyes, ears, and posterior: 'everything'
Now half-brainwashed Bloke, computing reality: 'and it's very, very nice[the EQC]'



-in Britain, as 'James' indicates, cars of this type - £40k-70k, SUVs/family cars - prams etc - are actually bought/decided by the women.

UK 'Blokes', especially middle-class, southern England/Home Counties/Cotswolds-residing 'James' types, are uber patriotic and p!ss-easy programmable - media/state/BBC/royal etc brainwashing. Land Rover exists solely because of them.

That's why JLR has turned back to 'rough' Land Rover Defender as its saviour, as women initially flock to fashion items like Evoques, wanting to be trendy and 'in', but then tire of dealing with male mono-syllabic morons in dealerships, for their 5+ annual dealer vists.

The I-Pace failed partly because it was marketed subliminally as: 'male, thrusting, dynamic, 'driving (ribbed) pleasure' etc', when its actual majority customers/definers of purchases were women, who bemoaned its god-awful reilability, small boot for prams etc, and, as Clare says, above, actual not a nice car all-round - relatively noisy, unrefined, nasty quality controls, no cover for the stupid pano roof, etc.

JLR only works with 'Blokes'. Either bald, Buy to Let Range Rover Sport owners, or Cotswold/Home Counties-set '4x4' owners, who revel in the middle to upper class hunting, fishing, shooting, royalty connection thing.

Jaguar and I-Pace don't work. Jaguar is/was supposed to be about sports cars, and lithe sports saloons. An unrefined, overpriced, cramped interior neither fish nor fowl SUV/crossover saloon-coupe sits with none of these marque attributes, and hence why it's a monumental failure.

JLR hasn't got the money to do a real E-type, or 911 competitor, and showing pictures of your coming 'Bentley/Merc/Tesla... killing 'eXJ'', which could be knocked up by a 10 year old in five minutes, doesn't cut it either, when Taycans, EQSs etc are real things.

JLR is back to what it was in the early to mid 80s - Jaguar moribund/dead - with Ford falling for Egan's three card trick of sellling almost 20 year old XJs for $1:£1, and Land Rover a 2-product line: a 'rugged, rough 4x4', and a posh, twice the price Range Rover, with the same mechanicals and chassis.

Ford and BMW saved a dead Jaguar and a dead-ended Land Rover, with the quantum leap L322 and Disco 3/RR Sport.

Lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place.
 
#1,941 ·
So Magna Steyr is in turmoil:

'BMW-Zukunft offen: Bei Magna wackeln nun 700 Jobs'

https://www.krone.at/1995102

- no surprise at all, given the near 100% flop of the '25,000/year I-Pace', and not far behind in the flop stakes 'factory-order only' E-Pace.

But, again unsurprisingly, the culprit being blamed is not JLR, but BMW - supposedly going to pull out the contract build of the 5-Series PHEV. The Z4 is too new to be a total collapse, and was only small production anyway.

Okay, it's possible, given that BMW could easily do the 5-Series PHEV in house, especially given the latest PHEV update, and the need for loading of the main Dingolfing factory, given the collapse in sales of premium saloons pretty much everywhere, US, UK, Europe, with China perhaps the only stand-out.

But, this stinks of BMW taking the fall for the collapse of Magna Steyr's production plan - around 50,000/yr down between the 25k/yr I-Pace - doing real under 10k - and the expected around 50k/yr E-Pace, doing now barely 20k/yr.

For Magna to put out the real culprit, just as JLR/The Media is ramming the 'huge success' of the Defender down everyone's throat would be a mortal blow to JLR, collapsing the Tata Motors share price again, and scuppering the last tiny hope of finding a cretinous buyer for JLR, after the non-sale of PSA.

BMW might have agreed to take the blame, as they can and will survive, and may be getting some backdoor deals with Magna for reduced contract cost for the remaining 5er PHEVs. It's no big deal in the round to BMW.

Conversely, Tata could be bunging Magna cash to hide the real story.

The bottom line is that the obvious turmoil at Graz is not caused by the minor 5-Series PHEV, but rather the cataclysmic flop of the two JLR cars, equally, given that E-Pace was supposed to be doing around double the I-Pace's hoped for/expected 25k/yr by now, not even 2 years after launch, when a 'new' model should be at its production and sales peak, as the sister drag car, the Evoque, was in late 2012 to late 2014.
 
#1,942 ·
The other side of the story, as told by Jaguar :)

The Magna Steyr in Graz-Thondorf has exceeded the production number of 100,000 Jaguar vehicles of the types E-Pace and I-Pace (picture above at the world premiere in Graz), as reported by the British manufacturer on Tuesday. The contract production started in September 2017 with the compact SUV E-Pace, followed by the I-Pace electric crossover in April 2018. The anniversary vehicle painted in "Corris Gray" goes to a US customer.
https://www.en24.news/2019/08/magna-has-already-built-100000-jaguars-in-graz.html
 
#1,943 ·
The other side of the story, as told by Jaguar :)
Magna already said in their 2019 Q1 financials that E-Pace production was down year on year. They said in 2019 Q2 ones that I-Pace was up yoy - obviously.

What's happened this week is that Magna has used the BMW taking the 5-Series PHEV in-house as cover for the big fall in their production, caused by the E-Pace and I-Pace. G-Class is doing well, and so too is the Z4/Supra combo, due especially to the Supra in the US.

BMW would have told Magna that the 5-Series PHEV was going in-house long ago, as it was off the planned latest, 3rd? gen., of their PHEV systems, and would be tied to the within months 'LCI', or facelift, for the current 'G30' 5-Series.

BMW must have agreed with Magna to be 'fingered' for this bad news story, with undisclosed 'benefits' flowing the other way. Besides, BMW in Austria is pretty rock solid, with the huge Steyr engine plant and engine development centre.
 
#1,944 ·
I had a long conversation with an I Pace owner last weekend at the JLR classic facility at Ryton and his main complaint was on the very much reduced mileage on each charge compared with the 300 miles claimed by Jaguar. He struggles to achieve 240 miles although his wife who is not so heavy footed has got 260 so far short of the claim. From his 6 month ownership and experience of his dealer he feels that the I Pace is very much a concept car launched too early and all the problems he has experienced Jaguar have no answers for and it is change components to see what works and if it solves the issue. His dealer complains that the back up from JLR technical is lacking resulting in I Paces off the road waiting for information to solve problems. Powering down seems to be another issue and the lack of technicians trained and if I Paces end up with accident damage bodyshops are not able to carry out the powerdown which apparently is essential before working on the car and spacesuits and £30K of kit required and always 2 technicians required for the operation.Not a happy customer then so this overpriced wonder from Jaguar could be the last straw which finally brings about the demise of JLR.
 
#1,945 · (Edited)
Not a happy customer then so this overpriced wonder from Jaguar could be the last straw which finally brings about the demise of JLR.
JLR 'demised' 3-4 years ago. It's being held in zombie state by the state - the UK, i.e., British taxpayers.

I-Pace came about because:

a) 'New Gen' was a total flop - XJ(X351) was already completely dead by 2014, XE and XF II monumental flops from birth.

b) Speth basically ditched 'JLR Britain', in exasperation at JLR's (non-)engineering/total incompetence and woeful build quality at Solihull in particular, and ran away to his known mates in 'Greater Germany' - southern Bavaria/Austria - after they had 'black box', totally done the four-wheel drive Jags in 2012-13 - why didn't Land Rover do it?

Magna turned around the I-Pace contract in short order - about 2 years, from late 2015.

Speth dealt with JLR's abysmal British product and build quality by kicking in the teeth of Solihull and Halewood, by setting up effectively a shadow factory in Slovakia - no need for Solihull, with 300k+/yr capacity - and giving the Evoque in drag(er) E-Pace to Magna, when it could easily, and should, have been built in Halewood - which is now dropping shifts.

Magna delivered, as per Speth's orders, but even these excellent product and production engineers - G-Class etc - couldn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear - trying to make a Tesla competitor from a 2012/2003 full-fat Range Rover/XJ X350 platform.

They tried to make it light(er), to get the Tesla-necessary 300 miles range, by cutting off the rear overhang, and ditching most of the sound deadening - resulting in a small, awkward boot, minimal rear seat room, and a noisy, tinny car.

Speth's JLR is summed up in the I-Pace: an expedient lashup, born of JLR's underlying abysmal engineering competence - so outsourced - and done at haste because the base, 'bread and butter' cars were complete sales flops, due to no investment in genuine new platforms, powertrains and technologies by an owner that was just using it for maximum cash extraction, knowing that the UK state and media would hide this fact, and ultimately step in to stop JLR going officially, publicly bust, because it was unacceptable politically in the UK.

So the I-Pace was an internal - JLR's engineering and production incompetence - and external - the uncacceptable PR hit of JLR failing - political vehicle, not a real vehicle, and hence all the awards showering, in the face of perhaps the worst car ever to come from a 'British' car maker.

And so this is the (near) reality of 'World Car of the Year', barely 12 months after 'rapturous reception' launch:

'Jaguar I-PACE Sales Decreased To 903 In August 2019'

https://insideevs.com/news/370460/jaguar-i-pace-sales-august-2019/

- that's the JLR declared 'sales' of course.

I said just this week that Magna, who is blaming BMW for having to sack workers, is actually making around 10k I-Paces a year, against the claimed 25k.

With the above, official figure, the situation is worse, even with the expected uplift this month from the UK - '69' plates.

The I-Pace's true demand, and hence real sales situation is now closer to 5k than 10k/yr annualised.

That's why Magna (Steyr) in Graz is in turmoil, along with near equal drop against planned/hoped for production of the E-Pace.

Not a word of course in the media.

They daren't, especially because their orders this week were to 'get Defender away' - brainwash all those middle class English men that paying £60-80k for another version of the ancient 2012/2002 platform, with a 2-litre Ingenium engine was what every patriotic Brit must do - even though it's made in 1,000 miles away Slovakia.

Some day, someone will write a book about all this - maybe 'Madhouse Britain: How a whole country lost its mind and its morals', or 'JLR: Jokers, Liars and Rogues'.
 
#1,946 ·
Demob happy, having a laugh at JLR's and owners' expense over the now out in the open joke I-Pace, or serious and ready for the funny farm?:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...over-boss-electric-cars-wont-get-cheaper-soon

- no one told the clown that VAG is already doing $100/kWh or less for its batteries, due to its enormous clout, and 700 kms is becoming the standard range for real, acutal bespoke '2nd gen' EVs, like the EQS and BMW iNext?

FFS, get rid this of moron/lunatic.
 
#1,948 ·
Demob happy, having a laugh at JLR's and owners' expense over the now out in the open joke I-Pace, or serious and ready for the funny farm?:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...over-boss-electric-cars-wont-get-cheaper-soon

- no one told the clown that VAG is already doing $100/kWh or less for its batteries, due to its enormous clout, and 700 kms is becoming the standard range for real, acutal bespoke '2nd gen' EVs, like the EQS and BMW iNext?

FFS, get rid this of moron/lunatic.
Jaguar’s worry about charging infrastructure is simply an excuse for their failure to provide fast charging.
Audi / Mercedes can charge their cars to 80% in a fraction of the time the IPace requires.
 
#1,947 ·
We can be pretty sure that JLR/JLR's PR arm, Haymarket Media, reads this forum, for this thread and 'Does this look like success?', as evidenced just today by the obvious rebuttal/PR exercise of saying the XF facelift is a thing, in Autocar, which just happened to wipe out/overwrite the earlier Feb 2019 article which said it was due for launch in 'the second half of this year', so will someone there please:

- have Speth 'retired', with immediate effect - 'personal health/family reasons' etc. He's either sad, bad or mad.

He either knows nothing about key matters - utterly incompetent - or is actually, unbelievably, consciously trolling the suckers who bought the now admiited not fit for purpose and vastly overpriced I-Pace in the last 12 months - which is more than enough grounds for instant dismissal.

Come on you ... , do something for once in your useless, hitherto shameful 'careers', and eject this blighter from JLR.
 
#1,949 ·
Imagine an EQC with similar if not more interior space, 300 kg at least less weight, real range of 300 miles with the largest battery pack option, and a price at least €/£10k less - the EQB:



Looks almost ready for launch.

ID.3, ID.4, Polestar 2, EQB - all cars that are due in the next 6-12 months, and will sell big, due to £30-50k price, as opposed to JLR's 2018 I-Pace that now seems as stale as week-old bread, and the promise of a Powerpoint 2020 eXJ.

No wonder the Indians want to try to bounce some fool into taking JLR off them.
 
#1,950 · (Edited)
Laugh or cry?:

https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=3660

https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2341&start=20

'WCotY'/'By Royal Appointment to Brenda, Big Ears... ' meets reality - of a third-world owner/'culture', its now fully third-world maker, and its third-world dealerships, operating not far off Indian back street conditions.

The whole thing, from Ratan Tata down to the 'technician' spanner monkey at the back of the shiny 'Dual Arch' glass palace, on £5/hr, is gimcrack.

Zero investment, owners and 'top managers' leeching billions and tens of millions out of the business every year, ends up after 10-11 years, in this rubbish.

Stick that photo in the media, and it would be the same as Gerald Ratner's M&S prawn sandwich for his 'diamond' jewellery.
 
#1,958 ·
Wot, no I-Pace - World, European... Car of the Year, the 'Game-changer', 'Tesla-killer' etc, pitted against the Tesla?

Has Bjorn gone mad, not realising the I-Pace is thee 'Premium SUV EV'?

Why has he pitched the literal T'urd against the Tesla, and not the 'orgasmic', 'stunning' I-Pace?

I think we know why.

I think we know why his promised I-Pace charging video no-showed last week, after the range and noise test videos.

Bjorn being quite young, and fairly trusting, took JLR's/the JLR Norway's PR man's word, that the I-Pace was now doing the higher 100 or 100+ kW charging - as stated by JLR since over a year ago.

He found out last week it isn't. It might even be worse than Sep 2018, due to all the constant updates, which seem to have made the car not work with many chargers, never mind give the promised 100 kW.

So Bjorn gives us two cars that are actually cars - admittedly the Fisher Price Tesla, and the massively overbuilt, ultra-conservative for range, battery usage etc e-tron.

 
#1,959 ·
The rest may as well pack up and go home - except maybe Daimler, and maybe BMW.

VW has played a clever game - pretend they're miles behind Tesla, in battery management etc, and worse, not a hope of catching cell makers, like LG Chem, Samsung, Panasonic, the 'prime movers' of course of the whole EV thing.

That would - if it hadn't changed - been like VW giving up on doing engines in the ICE era.

Did anyone really think the proud/arrogant Germans, especially those carrying the torch of Ferdinand Porsche etc, would settle for that?

News today that VW will begin production, ok, it's pilot level at the moment, of its own cells:

https://www.automobilwoche.de/artic...startet-pilotfertigung-eigener-batteriezellen

Let's cut to the chase. VW used the likes of CATL to bridge their infancy in EV to where they wanted to be - as completely dominant as they were in ICE.

The e-tron and Taycan show that they are already at least on a par with Tesla for the supposed 'mystery' of EV efficiency, battery management black arts and so on.

Now, the cat is out of the bag on independent, self-sufficient cell production and basically in-house supply.

The bean counters at VAG will have insisted on 'dualling', for supply and price competition, so the JV with Northvolt, from next year, but make no mistake, VAG and Deutschland Plc wants to play second fiddle to no one, whether Chinese, Korean, Japanese or Scandinavian.

Damn right. This world isn't about being second best, runner up, setlling for mediocrity, the famous Brummie/Midlander's 'that'll do'.

VW is now showing its hand, and it's holding 3, maybe 4 aces. The Taycan, e-tron, e-tron Sportback in a couple of months, ID.3, ID.4 to be shown at LA motorshow, all the Audi/Seat/Skoda 'MEB' platform clones, EV production next year in China for Audi's MEB clone, and on, and on.

What did people think around €50bn expenditure was meant for? To allow the joke, fraudster, flake Musk to take the limelight, forever, or a pipsqueak like JLR to pretend with its media mates that it could make gold out of lead, with tens of millions of pounds at most spent on a joke, the I-Pace, 'eXJ', Road Rover... ?

For god's sake, this is the real world, where the Germans came back from far, far worse than the $35bn theft and atttempted homicide of Dieselgate, like the 50s Wirtschaftswunder - 'economic miracle' - and then repeating the Beetle's dominance with the Golf, making Audi a real premium player, resurrecting Skoda, dominating with Tdi tech, etc, etc.

VW's just getting started - that's what terrifies everyone else - hence the panicked sacking by the Quandts of CEO Krueger.

Diess, the VW CEO, is a man on a mission. He's the silent assassin, cooing words of surrender and subjugation to Musk and the East Asian cell makers, and then planning a Blitzkrieg of EV and panzers(e-tron!) to drive over these pygmies.

Fascinating. The old order is being restored.
 
#1,960 ·
Following the news of VW's own cell production starting today at its Salzgitter plant, Automobilwoche have done a good comprehensive article, here with the original German link and Google translate in full:

Montag, 23. September 2019, 09.15 Uhr Fragen und Antworten:

'Warum die VW-Zellfertigung der große Wurf werden soll'



https://www.automobilwoche.de/artic...-vw-zellfertigung-der-grosse-wurf-werden-soll

Monday, September 23, 2019, 09.15 Questions and answers:

Why the VW cell production should be the big hit


Only assemble or make everything yourself? The car companies are facing this question in e-mobility. A separate production of battery cells secures independence, but costs billions. VW is now starting a pilot production - the competition has other plans.



Battery production: VW starts a pilot production in Salzgitter. The company needs a lot of batteries for its numerous planned electric cars. (Photo: VW)




Everyone is talking about electromobility, summoning their breakthrough, pointing out their importance in the light of the climate goals. But what does that help if customers order too few e-cars and manufacturers are vulnerable because they have to buy battery cells?
The VW Group has considered for a long time. Some critics say: too long. But now the company in Salzgitter - previously the headquarters of the internal combustion engine plant - has raised a pilot production for cells.

What plans is VW pursuing in Salzgitter exactly?


The pilot line is intended to pave the way for potential in-house production of battery cells on a large scale. Volkswagen first wants to gather more experience in the relatively new field - the topic has high priority for the Head of Battery and Energy Systems, Frank Blome. A "Center of Excellence" is intended to promote internal research.
The next step is planned for the coming year. Then VW wants to build a factory for lithium-ion batteries with the Swedish partner Northvolt in Salzgitter. From the turn of the year 2023/2024 to be produced. The Germans and Swedes each hold half of the shares, Volkswagen invests around 900 million euros.

How does this fit into the Group's previous electrical strategy?


Own battery cells would be enormously important for the world's largest carmaker. Daughters such as Audi, Skoda, Seat or Porsche could be supplied by the core brand, as is already happening today in engines, transmissions, steering systems and other components.
That would have cost advantages for the whole group. Works council chief Bernd Osterloh had earlier supported his own cell production - "contrary to the attitude of the board", which saw the auto suppliers more in the duty for a long time. Osterloh also called for a political discussion on "how we can create framework conditions that make production in Germany economically viable".
Volkswagen could also house self-made cells in the ID series. The group is billions in the new electric car family, the entire plant Zwickau was rebuilt for it.

Why is the topic so important to the entire car industry?


The goal is greater independence and less influence for dominant suppliers such as Samsung and LG (South Korea) or CATL (China). VW CEO Herbert Diess had said to the "Handelsblatt": "I find it scary that we have fallen into this dependence." Above all, CATL recently tried to gain a stronger foothold in Germany. Thuringia is home to a huge cell plant.
The more resolutely the transition to e-mobility is tackled, the safer the jobs in the factories will probably be in the long run. Although the lower working volume for electric motors compared to burners will cause jobs in traditional areas to disappear. But with appropriate training, many employees could, as IG Metall hopes, move into the new world. A "future pact", which provides for savings as well as the creation of such new jobs at VW, was initially highly controversial.

What is the situation with your domestic competitor Daimler?


The Stuttgart-based carmaker had already ceased his excursion into cell production in the Saxon town of Kamenz at the end of 2015. It was too expensive and not competitive with the cheap cells from Asia. Last year Daimler concluded supply contracts worth 20 billion euros. The car maker dictates what the cells should be able to do and then puts them into his batteries. At the auto show IAA Daimler announced a cooperation with the Chinese manufacturer Farasis Energy.
CATL in turn supplies cells for the heavy trucks, which are to be manufactured in series with electric motor from 2021 on. The batteries are built by Daimler but itself. Worldwide, the Group puts more than a billion euros in a network of several battery factories for cars.

And how is the stand at BMW?


The Munich builds the batteries for their hybrid and electric cars themselves, such as in the Dingolfing plant. The cells are purchased externally. That should stay that way for the time being. "There are no plans to enter production," said a spokesman. However, research on battery cells and electrochemistry has also been built by BMW in order to be able to negotiate with suppliers on an equal footing. Bavaria was the first customer to award a billions order for the CATL plant.

What does politics do?


This had warned that European car manufacturers would finally have to make their own production. There are several initiatives in politics that support this. Recently, nine states adopted the program for a second European battery group.
According to Federal Minister of Economics Peter Altmaier (CDU) succeeded in setting two major projects for battery cell production on the track. His department promotes the construction of a cell production with a billion euros, in order to maintain and build up added value and jobs. In a first German-French consortium Opel, its mother PSA and the French battery manufacturer Saft are represented. (Dpa / swi)
 
#1,961 · (Edited)
What the military call 'double tap' - two more lethal blows for the Game-changer:

1. the Taycan does what it says on the tin - Porsche + EV = genuine All-comers-Killer
2. the I-Pace doesn't do what it said on the tin - up to 2 years ago - '100 kW charging rate and 80% SoC in 40 mins' - the lawyers got the 'engineers' to make 100 kW real for a literal nano-second, to avoid JLR being sued/prosecuted for deception/fraud.



 
#1,962 · (Edited)
e-tron poised to overtake I-Pace in total registrations in Norway - probably next Monday/Oct Ist - just 10 in it currently, 3,771 to 3,761.

Not bad going for a bowel movement, crippled by the EPA rating, and the joke, crooked awards-showering of the I-Pace.

That's the trouble with the Norwegians - too much fish, and too much brains.

To add insult to injury, it looks like EQC deliveries are now getting into gear. Cheaper than the I-Pace, better range, faster charging, quieter, more space... .

Time for a new award/spectacular PR stunt for the I-Pace? But what's left? Greta Thunberg buys an I-Pace? I-Pace first 'Transgender Premium EV'? I'm joking, I think.
 
#1,963 ·
Once people experience the reality of the competition, and not the media's propaganda/lies, it's game-over for the Game-changer.

'far superior to both those vehicles[the Tesla and I-Pace]'

'best built, and best materials in an electric vehicle'

'the efficiency is very, very good'

'I think this is an incredible car'

- from 22:00 onwards



- not bad for a supposedly just bodged GLC. Can you imagine what Mercedes will do with a clean-sheet EV like the 2020 EQS?

And again, that's why the (2018)eXJ was pulled. The UK/US media can lobotomise punters to buy patent garbage like the Evoque and co., but EV is a different kettle of fish, with nerds/geeks being dominant, not airheads, hence why the I-Pace crashed and burned, even with an unprecedented full court press of the UK/US media employed for it, WCotY, 'Game-changer', 'Tesla-killer' etc, and the full weight of the UK state - 'HRH''s 'purchase' of the I-Pace etc.

The I-Pace is annihilated by the the EQC, an admitted expediency, utlilising a dating from 2014('W205' C-CLass) ICE platform('MRA') and the similar e-tron, so what hope did it and its rear overhang version, the eXJ, have against the Taycan, e-tron GT, EQS and co.?

JLR is where BL was in the late 70s, early 80s, a company whose products were still rooted in the 60s, with its powertrains going back to the 50s if not pre-war, trying to compete with a rash of 'superminis' from the Continent, bang up to date, efficient, reliable, good value for money, well made etc.

Sir Michael Edwardes and over £1 billion from the UK taxpayer, over £20bn in today's money - with real inflation - saved the day for a while, allowing Austin Rover, then Rover Group, to limp on till it was bought by BMW.

Won't happen again, whatever the efforts of the UK media and state to bounce BMW into doing it.
 
#1,964 ·
Effectively around £35k off a new I-Pace:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...de=bn159ax&sort=relevance&page=1&modal=photos

Looks like a loaded, supposedly ex-demo - done less than 2,000 miles in over 6 months - top spec HSE, 22" wheels, pano roof, wood etc, so £80-85k rrp, but Webuyanycar value it at... £48k!!!

Westfield, Stratford should be absolutely prime territory for Jaguar and the I-Pace - EV, so Con. Charge exempt, 0% BiK etc, and right by The City and all those bonused up bankers, just gagging to get into the 'It' or Zeitgeist car, patriotically British too, and world, UK, European etc car of the Year, a Game-changer, a Tesla-killer, rapturously received according to the cream of the British motoring and Her Majesty's press - so must be true - and yet it's priced already by Rockar as if it was a diesel sales rep XF - up to £20k off new price - and Webuyanycar seem to want to have nothing to do with it.

Biggest turkey, ever. This second Xmas, though, there's no escaping the knife - or is that banned, criminal speech now? Plod on the way - you can't mock the state champion - JLR/the multi-awarded I-Pace - 5 years in jail.
 
#1,965 · (Edited)
Besides the fact that these people are insane, barking mad - 'the best 2 jags' - it just illustrates why the I-Pace is so thirsty in reality, against its fraudulent 300 miles DfT-certified 'fact':



https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2510

It's basically an oversize brick, with the edges chamfered, real Cd 0.3 or higher, due to being on a 5m+ XJ/full-fat Range Rover platform, hence the 3 metre wheelbase, and why JLR/Callum tried desperately to reduce its awful Cd and frontal area by basically just lopping the roof off, and hence why its headroom is a joke, and why it has no pano roof cover.

Real EVs, whether the Cd 0.25 Model X or the 0.22 Taycan, and the coming near 0.20 Mercedes EQS, are why these cars have much greater range in reality, especially once average speeds go above 50 mph.

The aeroplane-derived Jags of the 50s and 60s were the antithesis of the I-Pace, hence the incongruity of the picture.

The Taycan shows a resemblance to the near same vintage as the E-type 911. The I-Pace has nothing to do with the 1968 XJ, never mind the E-type.

People, other than these barking creatures, don't fall for this rubbish - 'the I-Pace is a Jag' - as 'it has a growler badge and a Jag grille, and its name references and pays homage to the 'Grace, Pace and Space '68 XJ'.

The I-Pace looks what it is, a bloated, cynical attempt to peddle a bespoke EV, which is actually an oversize ICE platform, with a few styling tricks - bonnet scoop and showy roof spoiler.

Far from being one of 'Jag's best 2 cars ever', it's an abomination, and insult to the real Jaguar tradition.

Callum, Speth, Tata have shat on Jag's heritage from a great height, crowned by this turkey bloater.

Everyone else, whether BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Maserati, Alfa... , make cars that try to continue a line, whilst having to deal with the savage influence of aero drag on design, especially for EVs.

The ID.3, even with its monstrous roof spoiler, tries to reference the Golf. The Taycan, the 911, as said. The EQS will follow Merc's years, decades-old 'Vision' cars, and its low-aero cars going back to the early 70s, and the first oil crisis.

The I-Pace popped out of nowhere, as it was just a bodged and cynically sold 'bespoke' EV, with no link to any Jaguar.

The I-Pace is a dead end, and would have died within a few years anyway. Its actual job was to get JLR sold, along with its sister car, the booted, lowered version, the 'eXJ'.

Showering the I-Pace with awards - the most awarded car ever - and saying it changed everything - like a Model T, Beetle, Golf or 2011 Tesla Model S - and was going down a storm with critics and buyers, was all just about getting JLR off Tata's hands, and onto some idiot's.

It was the cornerstone of a huge pump and dump operation, involving not just Tata and JLR, but also of course basically the whole gobal media, all of the UK state, from 'The Royals' on down, and all the 'financial analysis' crowd, from Bloomberg to Reuters to as we've seen most recently, the 'prestigious' Bernstein Research, no doubt getting big bucks from the Tatas and Mistrys to try to bounce BMW into taking JLR from Tata, after the attempt with the muppet Tavares at PSA failed, once the owners woke up and realised what their CEO clown was doing - repeating the disaster of acquiring GM Europe to the power of ten.

So the I-Pace's purpose is over. It's dead, null, didn't happen as a real car thing - or whatever the old biddy in the court said - 'it never happened'.

Indeed, the I-Pace 'never happened', and was 'unlawful' - a 300 miles, 100 kW, SOTA fraud.

Too bad the gimps in the courts of this land don't look into real matters. But that would take real work, in real things - can't have that.
 
#1,967 · (Edited)
Never rains but it pours:

Used the car in heavy rain last night and got into it with the wife after walking through a rain storm. Dash on the passenger side was pretty splashed when my wife got in.

Today it hurled it down with really hard rain, then stopped and we went out again when it wasn't raining.

My wife then told me that she had drips on her feet as I went around a corner.

Now I'm worried that I have a leak somewhere at the base of the windscreen on her side, though it's perhaps possible that some water could have splashed in last night, but seems unlikely that it would collect in such a place to drop on her feet.

Anybody else experienced a leak, or maybe even water dripping in through the foot vents?
https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2519

- can't blame shoddy build quality, poor quality workers this time - the same crew make the G-Class.

This is due to the car being aluminium structure, with insufficient bracing, strengthening, to make up for aluminium's inherent weakness, compared to steel, or the newer high and ultra high strength steels.

It's also due to the huge area of front screen, caused by the huge rake, caused by pulling the base of the screen forward by about half a metre, caused by the need to get the Cd down, caused by the need to market it to muppets as a '300 mile car', and hence 'Tesla-killer' - 'World's first Premium EV SUV'

The lack of strengthening, bracing and use of multi-materials, high strength but heavier steel primarily, is also due to the need to keep the I-Pace's weight down, which also caused it to resonate like a tin can, due to the lack of a 100 kg or more of sound deadening etc.

The aperture of the front screen is flexing, and with the recent heavy, persistent over days rain, water is getting in, almost certainly at the perimeter of the screen.

The F-Pace I think had similar problems, which @hydrajaws might know more about, but the I-Pace situation will be worse, due to the near 1.5 times greater windscreen size, longer A-posts, which are inherently weaker, given the same materials employed, and hence will flex more.

JLR would of course have known this, but also doing a proper car - it can de done, as shown by the Model X's huge front screen aperture - would have meant basically doing a real car, with development of 4 years or more, using multi-materials, several seasons of real-world testing in cold/hot/wet climates, etc.

The silver lining for JLR and I-Pace owners is that Global Warming will kick in any minute now and turn southern England - where 90% of I-Pace owners live - into the south of France, if not the Sahara, meaning rain will be a 'thing of the past', and 'children will not know what it is' - or was that David Viner of University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit's prediction for snow in the year 2000?

I forget. It's hard to keep up with all these 'in 5 years... ' predictions of 'scientists' over the last 30 years.

In fact, in solar minmums, little ice ages, the kind of weather experienced in UK and north western US, and 'desert' southern Spain over the last few weeks - torrential, persistent downpours/huge hailstorms/huge snowfalls - become the defining weather, with short intermittent 'heatwaves' - which the media then use as proof positive of CAGW, completely ignoring the plunging temps. and record precipitation.

An EV I-Pace bought on the predication of CO2 greenhouse gas/CAGW/Saving the Planet, which then turns in to a mobile mushroom propagator, is the big man upstairs having his fun with the numpties below.
 
#1,968 · (Edited)
But the I-Pace was supposed to be the Game-changer and the Tesla-killer.

So what are we supposed to call a product that can do 0-250 km/h around 9 seconds faster than Tesla's 'Ludicrous' thingy - apt name - and 200-250 km/h in around half the time? 'Cheat'? -Ha, ha, beat you to it.

Stand back and behold what real car companies, real engineers, and real money, not siphoned off by dope peddlers and looney tune rug wearers, can do:





- Game-over for the Gimps - 'Lock them up!'.
 
#1,973 · (Edited)
Just in case there's any doubt that it's UK and NOT Norway that's the outlier for I-Pace (non-)sales, due to JLR being able to register cars to itself until the cows come home without being called out by the 'authorities', from corrupt auditors to corrupt journalists to corrupt financial analysts to corupt law enforcement agencies, - FCA, SFO, etc - here's Sweden next door doing an even better impression of Norway's around 2.5-3:1 outselling of the I-Pace v e-tron:

Sweden EV Registrations September 2019

Model 3 - 716
Model S - 197
Kia Niro EV - 86
BMW i3 BEV - 69
eGolf - 132
Model X - 89

e-tron - 87; YTD 481
I-Pace - 13; YTD 162

- i.e., the trend is getting worse for the I-Pace.

EQC - 5

- looks like a drubbing by the e-tron and Model X/S to me, with the EQC at the starting gate.

And, not a single PHEV - full-fat or Sport - registered/sold in Sweden, last month or all this year - and yet we're told the PHEV Range Rovers are a huge success - hundreds a month alone being sold(dumped) in France etc.

Meanwhile, tiny, of no consequence Mitsubishi(I know it's a huge Japanese company/conglomerate), sold almost 300(283) Outlander PHEVs in September, and over 3,500 in total so far this year, just in tiny Sweden - ~10m population.

- others do, JLR/the Media/the UK shouts.

If it wasn't for those 500 or so bed pan emptiers who have suddenly ordered £80k I-Paces on their £5/hr zero-hours contracts with Capita, G4S etc, I-Pace 'sales' in the UK would be in the same boat as Norway, Sweden, the US - everywhere where JLR's mass self-registering and a bent regime, bunging it Third World-style contracts, don't operate.

The UK is the most bent and brainwashed country in the world. That is the single reason why the I-Pace in the UK bucks the trend.

Go to Autotrader and see how many I-Paces are listed. See what Webyanycar will offer you after a few months for your 70, 80, 90 grand Car of the Year - 20, 30, 40 grand loss.

You can't warp reality forever and everywhere. It only works in the UK because the whole state, the whole system is bent - no one snitches, whistle-blows on anyone - and the populace underneath buy into this mass propaganda because their interests are only in sport - passive, bovine watching - or 'reality' TV - passive, bo... .

Do not mistake this madhouse/Dystopia for what happens in the 97% rest of the world.
 
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